In response to that one person, who wrote a blog post about how the CCC has become too political and how they didn't go to #CCCamp2019 because of an "Antifa or GTFO" atmosphere, I designed these.

Kinda wanna print some t-shirts. Anyone know a good place to do collective orders?


@spacekookie actually I can understand that a bit.

I mean being political is a good thing, but especially the antifa people are more the "fight hate with hate" kind of people and most people who are not into covering their face and throwing stones can feel offplace.

I think there is enough hate in this world, we really don't need antifa where ever we go for some ""political"" statements.

History proven that hate and anger are the least things that improve anything

@Vamp898 lol @ "fight hate with hate". Ah yes, fascists and racists will be won over by kindness.

Fuck off.

@spacekookie no, they will be won over by hate, as always in history xD

As we can all see of totally works, there are less and less Nazis every day. We hate them more and more and... oh wait, they get more powerful and common every day :o

But hitting someone in the face is just so much easier than go the hard way and actually find a solution, I can at least understand why so many people go antifa.

They are wrong and don't help (the opposite), but I can understand the urge for an easy solution

@Vamp898 @spacekookie While Antifa methods do include violence for some(!), that is by far the one aspect that is the most overemphasized by Antifa "critics". There are lots of nonviolent things that are being done against faschism.
Antifa is not synonymous with wearing masks and setting cars on fire. Antifa means "fighting faschism, by any means necessary". The fact that that does not exclude violence does by no means imply that violence is the preferred method. (Hint: it usually is not.)


This Video is wrong in several aspects and is not getting the whole idea behind antifa. But its just the personal opinion of some guy doing youtube, so no suprise.

Well my point is, they failed. They are fighting fascism by any means and fascism is getting bigger and bigger every day.

They failed and their methods have been proven wrong by history several times.

We don't need the Antifa to fight fascism and they don't help either.

@fnord @spacekookie
We urgently need people who are actually capable in finding solutions for issues and not just quick and dirty workarounds.

Extremists never did any good in the history of humans and this won't change.

Hate and fear never lead to peace

@Vamp898 @spacekookie Could you give an example of such a workaround?
Also: I strongly oppose the view that being against faschism is an extremist position.

@fnord @spacekookie
Being against fascism is something different than being a member of an antifa group.

Antifa is the word used for left-radical autonom groups and is not the same thing as anti-fasciscm.

The IS isn't the islamic state either and the AfD is no alternative for germany.

Just because the name of some group implies values, doesn't mean that they have to implement them.

Solution: Find out whats the reason for fascism and prevent it.
Workaround: Hit fascists

@Vamp898 @spacekookie "Antifa is the word used for left-radical autonom groups and is not the same thing as anti-fasciscm."
By the non-left the word is certainly often used that way. But I actually know more and more people, especially in the last few years, who use the term in the sense of "actively opposing fascism", which is obviously something different.

@fnord @spacekookie
Then they use the word wrong. The word Antifa does have an history and its very dangerious using the word Antifa or antifa symbols.

Especially it is _very_ hard to identify people who are actually extremists but hide that behind some excuses that their are actually not antifa but anti-fascism.

It just makes things more complicated, maybe a new movement should be started to clear up that mess. To seperate hateful people from the ones who actually care about stuff

@Vamp898 @spacekookie I think I get your point. I have the impression, though, that the "misuse" of the word Antifa, as you describe it, at least seems to be a trend recently. Many people use it in the meaning of "opposing fascism". If that is a good or a bad thing, I don't know - I'll have to think about that.

@Vamp898 @spacekookie I have the impression that this particular guy usually does his homework quite well when researching for a video.
I don't agree that Antifa "failed", just becaus the faschists are currently on the rise, but for the sake of the argument: What do you think would have worked better?

@fnord @spacekookie
What are the reasons that people are getting fascists? What causes this?

_That_ is the important question, that is what we have to fight and that is what antifa gives a shit about

@Vamp898 @spacekookie I agree that this is one of the important questions, but I wouldn't agree that antifa excludes such considerations per se. Your experiences may differ, obviously.

@fnord @spacekookie
From time to time i am joining some antifa events and even attended an musical festival where lots of antifa people attended.

And even though it always beginds friendly, it often ends up with an very aggresive vibe, especially when bands like "frittenbude" go on stage.

In my personal feeling, Antifa is (mostly) about hate, fear and anger than actually solving issues.

But if you look at the history of Antifa... i mean... thats their thing in the first place

@Vamp898 @spacekookie Okay, my experiences with antifa people was mostly through ccc events and/or a bunch of queer friends of mine. The aggressive vibe that you describe is something that I personally have never experienced in that context. So that's probably why, in my view, while extreme left/autonomous groups and antifa do certainly overlap, they are not the same thing.

@spacekookie @Vamp898 I hope this attitude will never be general opinion of the members in the CCC. because then we have lost or neutrality in every way.

@fnord @spacekookie @Vamp898 "our" (not or, sorry) neutrality in terms of being impartial, open for every thought and _not_ judging people or opinions by their heritage or speech. See our Hackerethik: "Hackers should be judged by their acting, not bogus criteria such as degrees, age, race, or position.". And being pro/against antifa is a position.

@rince @spacekookie @Vamp898 Okay, I think we have a problem with the word Antifa here. If you use it in the sense "autonomous left extremists", I agree that it is a position that you shouldn't be forced on. More and more people seem to use the term Antifa in the sense "actively opposing fascism", though. If you are against the latter, I'd very much like you to gtfo.

@rince @spacekookie @Vamp898 I consider neutrality a problematic term in that context. After all, there are lots of thoughts that we are not open for, and with good reason.

@fnord @rince @spacekookie
Again, the word Antifa does have a meaning. Re-defining words is and stays dangerous.

I'd say, just create a new term and while at it, dont use the word Anti.

I think Anti is a bad word for every movement.

Rather be pro life than anti death

@Vamp898 @rince @spacekookie Don't get me started about "pro life". 🙂 But that made me think. An anology could be the fire department. It's usually very much anti fire and not so much pro non-burning-things. But they do fire-safety/prevention work, too. So, we actually need both: A way to deal with the fascists that we already have, and a way to prevent new people from becoming fascists. So anti-fascism and pro-tolerance-and-freedom go hand in hand, but they are not the same thing.

@rince @fnord @spacekookie @Vamp898 Since you're specifically discussing the CCC here, failing to mention the Unvereinbarkeitserklärung seems...selective?

That's most definitely a "position" and luckily it's not "neutral". Fascists and their enablers, GTFO.

@alexander @fnord @spacekookie @Vamp898 yes - but saying "be antifa or go" is far more than the general unvereinbarkeitserklärung. And that's why I am against such a position

@rince @fnord @spacekookie @Vamp898 Not everyone has the privilege of simply blending in when it's too late. So if you're just going to let the Nazis march through, which is what being "neutral" really means, see above.

@alexander @fnord @spacekookie @Vamp898 so, in your words everyone who is not Antifa is bad and a Nazi? Interesting view.

@rince @fnord @spacekookie @Vamp898 In my actual words: if you're spending a lot of time on the Internet explaining why anti-fascism is a bad "position", you're definitely part of the problem. Now kindly go troll somewhere else, I'm done with your bullshit.

@alexander @rince @spacekookie @Vamp898 I think the point he's trying to make is: anti-fascism != Antifa. I had that discussion yesterday, but I'm not sure yet to what extent I agree, tbh.

@fnord @spacekookie That's his tactic as of this moment, yes, but it's not the real problem. Scroll back and read all his nonsense on "neutrality" etc. again. Did he state his clear opposition to fascism anywhere, or what his idea of resistance is? Exactly. Instead, he is "open for every thought", LOL. A typical Hufeisen-Dude. He will do well under any political system. I will never expect solidarity from persons like that. Don't let them slow you down.

@alexander @rince @fnord @spacekookie
He said that it is bad to judge people based on position, not that antifa is a bad position.

Less emotions please.

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