@kuketzblog Very hard to decipher. What does it say, in plain language? That censors wanted F-droid to ban Fedilab and F-droid refused?

@bortzmeyer
I think some people wants f-droid to had a flag like "this application as some problematics features". But they won't.

@kuketzblog

@AntoineVe @kuketzblog Again, this is very confusing. (Why can't people speak plainly, and not as politicians?) What were these "problematic features"?

@bortzmeyer
F-droid has concept of "antifratures". https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/Antifeatures

[fr]
Par exemple, pour "New Pipe", cela promeut le réseau YouTube qui n'est pas libre : c'est une "antifeature"

Dans notre cas, on peut imaginer quelque chose comme "cette application permet d'accéder a des réseaux promouvant le racisme". Mais d'après ce que j'ai compris, f-droid ne se lancera pas la dedans, mais réfléchis à un système pour afficher n'importe quel tag venant d'autres dépôt, pour que les communautés qui le souhaite créent leur propre dépôt, avec leur "flag" personnalisés.

@kuketzblog

@AntoineVe @kuketzblog "cette application permet d'accéder a des réseaux promouvant le racisme" serait d'une débilité rare. Quelqu'un a vraiment proposé ça ? C'est comme si on voulait que la description de LibreOffice soit accompagnée de « ce logiciel permet d'écrire des textes fascistes » ou que celle de Calibre affiche « ce logiciel permet de lire des EPUB masculinistes ».

@bortzmeyer @kuketzblog

"F-Droid won’t tolerate oppression or harassment against marginalized groups. Because of this, it won’t package nor distribute apps that promote any of these things. This includes that it won’t distribute an app that promotes the usage of previously mentioned website, by either its branding, its pre-filled instance domain or any other direct promotion."

Pretty clear to me! 👍

@rysiek @kuketzblog But completely irrelevant since, apparently the issue at stake was quite different. (People who wanted to ban Fedilab because it doesn't implement their blocking list.)

@bortzmeyer @kuketzblog well, they explain later that fedilab is implementing certain things that seem to make it okay.

@rysiek @kuketzblog There is no problem at all with Fedilab. The problem is with the censors. (But it is hard to discuss since most people, like the F-droid staff, remain very vague and never discuss concrete things.)

@bortzmeyer @kuketzblog concrete things here are pretty simple: while free speech is important, it is not an acceptable defense when we're dealing with a group that harasses, attacks, or explicitly calls for other groups to be hurt.

What we're talking about here is the Paradox of Tolerance:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_

F-Droid, Tusky, and a majority of the Fediverse are taking a stance here. A stance against intolerance.

@rysiek @kuketzblog Again, this is not the issue. The issue is the attempt to censor Fedilab, with false accusations.

@bortzmeyer @kuketzblog and F-droid is not doing this:

"We also respect Fedilab’s decision not to hardcode a login block; instead they are actively working on making it easier to block certain domains in the app itself and thus giving users more power to moderate which content they’ll see."

@rysiek @kuketzblog Not F-Droid, but some loonies, for instance reporting Fedilab to Google (on the Play Store).

@bortzmeyer @rysiek @kuketzblog

To my understanding of the statement on F-droid, it's not against Fedilab, or for Tusky. They support both decisions on each project.

It's to prevent for Gab to release its own app (or a fork) on F-droid, branded to their social network and advertising it, with its known and mainly acknowledged problematics.

@r3vlibre @rysiek @kuketzblog This is not obvious and does not appear in the public statement. Hence my initial remark, stating that the statement is very hard to understand, one doesn't even see the issue.

@r3vlibre @rysiek @kuketzblog For instance, I thought at the beginning that it was about Fedilab, but you say it is actually about a possible Gab app?

@bortzmeyer

It didn't clearly mention "Gab", but it's aimed at it, or any other similar websites :

> a website joined the fediverse only half a month ago that is well known to be a “free speech zone” [...] While in theory this might seem to be a good concept, it has serious consequences: things like racism, sexism, verbal abuse, [...] become popular on such instances.

[1/2]

@rysiek @kuketzblog

@bortzmeyer

After, they talk about Tusky and Fedilab, just stating their choices.

Then, they come to say they can't stay neutral (regarding these websites). They didn't say nor mean that Fedilab neutrality is bad, but I agree, the flow can result in that impression.

They conclude:
> it won’t package nor distribute apps [...] that promotes the usage of previously mentioned website, by either its branding, its pre-filled instance domain or any other direct promotion.

2/3

@rysiek @kuketzblog

@bortzmeyer

To me, it's clear that it targets apps that promote this kind of website (Gab and alike). Either their own, or a fork one, they rebranded, or configured to have direct access to this kind of instances, and so on.

They don't want that on F-droid.

In the end:
> We respect Tusky’s decision to block mentioned website; [...]. We also respect Fedilab’s decision not to hardcode a login block; [...]

They also stand for their position in favor of Fedilab.

3/3

@rysiek @kuketzblog

@rysiek @kuketzblog And for Tusky, it is a matter of power: who should be in Control, the user or the developper? I'm not surprised most programmers think it should be the developper, and that he/she has a right to decide what the user can/cannot see.

@bortzmeyer @rysiek @kuketzblog ah, what a bullshit. Like we show/hide content for the user or decide who you can talk to.
No, if you hang out on the Nazi instance - go and use another client. We won't prevent other users from seeing your bs or from talking to you but we won't provide service to you.
We don't get more control by having less users, quite contrary. Don't twist it.

@rysiek @bortzmeyer @kuketzblog I also read if as they wouldn't accept a gab-branded blog, but think that fedilab'snot quite there.
Not sure I agree, but it's refreshing to see a FOSS flagship like f-droid admit that there's a scale, and that discussions have meaning...

@panina some wanted to blame Fedilab for not blocking Gab, others wanted to have an AntiFeature slabbed on Tusky for blocking Gab (arguing that would make it NonFree), a few just wanted to shitstorm. Finally the decision was: It's fine that Tusky and Fedilab are as they are – but we won't accept an app openly promoting harassment, violence etc. (e.g. by branding it offensively, like a Gab fork of Tusky with the Gab logo etc, as the blog article lined out).

@IzzyOnDroid yeah, that's how I understood the statement.

Side note: glad to see you here! I really love your repo, excellent place to find new and cutting-edge apps!

@panina Thanks – and glad you like it! Always nice to get such warm words as feedback, so one knows all the efforts made on it are valued 😃 (besides, I'm also one of the maintainers in the official repo, so I experienced some of that topic live. I had wished those discussions where that up to the point: counting words, my summary is probably about 0.01‰ of one of the threads 😱)

@IzzyOnDroid

yup

or, to try to paraphrase in my own words:

Tusky doesn't go too far for F-droid by blocking Gab.

Fedilab can stay even though it doesn't go far enough in some eyes.

A Gab-specific app won't be included.

Good navigation through a tough course.

@panina

@deejoe @panina And tough it was, definitely! Thanks for the separate sum-up – easier to read than mine 😆

@panina Oh, and then there are those who for that reason forbid us adding their app to F-Droid because they want full freedom. Get the irony?

@IzzyOnDroid I'd say it's quite important for f-droid to find their(/your) own view on things. Once that's clear, the ones who shun you will seem less important.
And, no matter what the standpoint, there'll always be someone shunning you.

Feels to me like there's a lot of politics seeping into FOSS nowadays. It was always political, but it was always the same issues. Restricted to the world of code.
Hard to navigate, when actual Nazis shows up and takes advantage of what has been the cornerstones of FOSS politics...

@panina If nobody shuns you, you're not doing much. As soon as you engage, there will be people opposing what you do – no matter what it is. You can't do it right for everyone.

Or, to take your words: if nobody shuns you, you have no standpoint. So who are you, then?

It's not a nice-welcome thing, being shunned. But it also means you're doing something and make your point. Though admittedly it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something *right* 😆 (I hope we do)

@rysiek @bortzmeyer @kuketzblog womp womp, I read the "response"...

So, basically, F-Droid just wants to allow safe harbor for neonazis.

And no, Fedilab isn't doing anything to prevent their app from being used by nazis.

@kuketzblog This is really well worded. Thanks for sharing it. @maloki

@kuketzblog interesting take, with the third-party tags. Have to give that one some thought...

@kuketzblog
A nice reading and very good position.
I like their position.

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