Problems we are having with #Signal:
* It is and will remain centralized (clear strategy of *not* federating servers)
* It requires strong identifiers/selectors (phone#) to use
* Author disallows distribution by anyone but Google, although free/libre
* It keeps pushing away verification of fingerprint in interface
* It relies on Google+Amazon infrastructure
* Its funding is shady (OTF = Radio Free Asia = USG)

= clearly unethical choices, unjustifiable by accessibility or technological reasons.

@jz Well it's nice to see the rest of the internet catching up. For a while I seemed to be the only Signal complainer, and that's because not long after it was first released I wanted to try running it myself (including the server side) and then encountered the problems you've listed. There was also a hostile reaction towards LibreSignal.

On the upside, Signal probably is better than WhatsApp or Telegram.

My original complaints:

@bob @jz there is a downloadable apk for signal, but maybe you want to check out – should not have any of the problems you mentioned. 😉

@mray @jz

I've seen deltachat, although havn't used it. My thoughts are that I'd prefer to keep GPG keys intended for email away from Android devices, and I expect the app will need to poll the mail server quite frequently which might not be good for battery.

@bob @jz battery consumption is very moderate. You only need to use the same GPG keys on mobile/desktop if you want to read chat messages inside your regular mail client.

@mray @bob @jz Delta chat seems creative but very silly... they make it sound like creating an account is this HUGE hurdle/problem. And like I guess? But it doesn’t stop most people. On one hand it’s clever to use encryption(pgp?) over email as the IM transport, but that also seems very convoluted and complex? Which leads to problems.

If I want a secure chat, I’d just use like Tox or Ricochet that’s been designed from the bottom up to be secure.

@Thepunkgeek @jz @mray

Also PGP chat has no forward secrecy or ratchet, but this may still be an improvement over what many people are using currently.

@bob @jz @mray It’s totally an improvement, but like why create software that’s only slightly better than something else when there’s software already out there that’s doing way more way better?

I’m not trying to attack this project, I think the idea is cool, just seems like there’s better solutions already and energy would be better spent improving those?? But that a FLOSS community problem.

@Thepunkgeek @mray @jz

At present I don't think there's any chat panacea and that the best we have is XMPP with the Conversations if the server is set up *just right* so that everything works.

Briar might be another possibility, but presently I'd regard that as being for traditional activism where you meet in a pub or at a festival and can do face-to-face key verification.

@bob @Thepunkgeek @mray @jz +1 for XMPP with the server and clientes supporting the latest Recommended set of XEPs + OMEMO (instead of OTR), and in the future: better Jingle audio/video calls support for mobile FLOSS.

@hinterwaeldler @adfeno @bob @Thepunkgeek @jz Ring eats your mobile data alive. Unfortunately. But I love how it is free, encrypted and serverless.

@mray @adfeno @bob @Thepunkgeek @jz Is this an inherent flaw or might battery consumption be fixed with a patch?

@hinterwaeldler @adfeno @bob @Thepunkgeek @jz it's part of the price you pay when nobody and everybody is the server.

@mray @adfeno @bob @Thepunkgeek @jz I'm still struggling to get the concept behind #ring. The calls / chats themselves are peer-to-peer, meaning I'm sending my message *directly* to the recipient, right? What is the necessary "server" / DHT part do?

@mray There is still a way to disable the local node and use another node to listen the network for you (a DHT proxy)

@hinterwaeldler The DHT is like a distributed mailbox. You send the encrypted message on the DHT network even the peer is disconnected. Then the peer has some minutes to read the DHT. So you don't send the message directly to the recipient, but let a message in a hash (like a mailbox). It's also used to init direct calls between you and your contact.

@mray @hinterwaeldler @adfeno @bob @Thepunkgeek @jz

In one month, ate 28GB of data. That was when I uninstalled it, real battery flattener!

@hinterwaeldler @mastodan Well, 28GB is insane and is not the result of a normal app behaviour IMO.

Otherwise, poorer data/battery perfs are the cost of a fully distributed network on mobile devices... but as said, we're working on the DHT proxy which is some kind of tradeoff between distributed network and battery/data footprint. It's still a bit experimental but you can already try it, it's kind of hidden in the settings :-)

I use Ring android every day (and like a lot). Last moth: 371 Mb
28GB is not normal at all. Even on an old bugguy version

@mray @hinterwaeldler

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