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Microsoft doesn't ship any tools for building programs with their OS anymore, either.

They used to. There was a time when you could sit down at any windows or DOS machine and code up a program that would run on any other Windows or DOS machine.

But we can't have that anymore.

In the name of Ease of Use, they left out the Human aspect.

Use your computer how you're told to use it, and everything is easy.

Do anything new or novel and it's a struggle.

My nephew has an ipad.

He asked his dad how to write games. His dad didn't know. His dad asked me how to write games on an iPad. I told him not to bother.

My nephew asked me how to learn to write games.

I gave him a raspberry pi and a copy of pico 8.

Now he writes computer games.

He couldn't do that on his iPad.

Hypercard would be a perfect fit for the iPad and iPhone.

Imagine it!

Imagine the things you could build.

But we aren't allowed to have computers that are fun to use, that are easy to build for, that are human centric, or human literate.

The last 10 years of development in computers were a mistake. Maybe longer.

Instead of making computers Do More, or making them Feel Faster, we've chased benchmarks, made them more reliant on remote servers, and made them less generally useful. We brought back the digital serfdom of the mainframe.

In the first episode of computer chronicles (youtube.com/watch?v=wpXnqBfgvP) the mainframe guy is real adamant about how mainframes are good and micros are bad.

The host, a microcomputer legend, disagrees pretty strongly.

Later, when they talk about the future of networking, the mainframe guy talks about it as a return to mainframes. The micro guy talks about BBSs, peer to peer networks.

The mainframe guys are winning.

(this is not to say that I think mainframes are bad. I don't. Mainframes can be really good and interesting! Plato was wonderful, as were some of the early unix mainframes.

But IBM style Mainframe culture is The Computer as a thing you Use but don't Control culture, and I am very against that.)

I have to step away for a while. I'll continue this later.

@ajroach42 I want to respond, elaborate, & discuss at length here. I spent about 10 months some years ago immersed in the computing literature around the history of debuggers, during which I went from EDSAC to Visual Studio, but also all the other half-dead ends ends of computing history such as, e.g., Lisp machines.

Naturally, I came out of it a Common Lisper, and also naturally, with Opinions about modern computing.

Up for the discussion? It could get wordy and over a few days. :)

@pnathan for sure.

I haven’t gotten in to lisp machines yet, but I’m always down for discussion.

@ajroach42 @pnathan
This thread is going to be gold :)
(I'm replying here so that I won't forget about it...)

@ciaby @pnathan I hope you enjoy! I'm looking forward to the discussion as well.

@ajroach42 @ciaby
OK, so, I'm about a decade older than you, Andrew: I taught myself QBasic in the mid 90s, got online late 90s, never really looked back.

First, I want to say this: older computer systems - considered as systems - were generally more capable.

But to be clear, they were limited in use for those who didn't take an interest in learning them. I'm talking about things that weren't Windows 3.1+.

@ajroach42 @ciaby This was the Great Debate that was largely won by Microsoft. "Everyone can 'use' a computer.". That is to say, everyone can operate the appliance with preinstalled software. *everyone*. Apple pioneered the notion, but it turns out to be the preferred mode for businesses, who really rather don't like having specialized experts.

@ajroach42 @ciaby It is my contention that Windows (& *nix) computer systems are designed to be administrated and managed by sysadmins, and the user experience in this case is great.

When you have sysadmins, there are no driver problems. There are no printer problems. There are no problems, as a matter of fact: it's all been taken care of by the admins.

This is exactly how executives like it.

Apple does the same, with their iPhone.

Apple is the sysadmin, metaphorically.

@pnathan @ciaby This is a good point, but I think it deserves scrutiny.

I am employed as a support engineer and a sysadmin, and I still run in to driver issues, printer issues, etc.

I take care of them, eventually, when I can.

But, even after doing this for 10 years, I still encounter problems that I can't solve (because there isn't a solution.)

but the metaphor of Apple as sysadmin, I'll accept. I disagree with someone else admining my phone, but that's another issue.

@ajroach42 @ciaby your users pay you so they don't have to care about sysadmin issues. their world is great!

@ajroach42 @ciaby I'm glossing over the 1% failures to get at the core point: sysadmins are designed into the windows and unix world so users can focus on their core competency.

@ajroach42 @ciaby

Hi, I'm probably near the age of @pnathan, and while I'm not a lisper anymore (ages went from my emacs fluency) I agree with all he said.

To give some context, I'm a polyglot programmer currently working on a brand new operating system jehanne.io

Now, the assumption that you seem to share is that people cannot learn how to program. I used to think this too.
Now however I realized that it's like we were scribas of Ancient Egypt arguing that people cannot write.

@Shamar @pnathan @ciaby I never said people can't learn to program.

I'm saying that some people don't want to learn to program, and that what we call "programming" is needlessly difficult for some tasks, in the name of corporate profits.

@Shamar @pnathan @ciaby I feel like you think this was a clever point, but I don't understand what you mean.

Programming is a specialty, and some people have other specialties. Expecting them to also become expert programmers because our current expert programmers can't be arsed to make extensible and understandable tools is unreasonable.

@ajroach42 @ciaby @pnathan

This is the assumption I challenge.

For sure programing is a speciality right now.

But it's a speciality just like reading, writing and counting.

Not everybody can be a novelist, nor a professional mathematician.

But people should be able to program, just like they are able to read, write, compute a volume, reason about an average speed, a length...

Programming is harder then math because we are still using primitive tools.

It's sad that we are happy with them.

@Shamar @pnathan @ciaby

Some kinds of programming (just like some kinds of math) will remain hard.

But better tools are what I'm after, yeah.

@ajroach42 @ciaby @pnathan

We need a lot of #research.

We should #hack more.

And we need better #math too.

It will take some centuries.

Much more, if each generation keep being satisfied with the shit it slightly improve (or messup, as we did with the #web when we give out #XHTML for #Javascript).

Because, to me, the tool we need are as different from today mainstream tech as our writing system is from Egyptian #hieroglyphs.

@Shamar
I feel that it's not only a matter of research, but also a point of throwing away some tech that we take for granted (x86, for example) and rebuild from scratch with different assumptions in mind. In the current economic system I find it quite hard to do...
@pnathan @ajroach42

@ciaby @pnathan @ajroach42

You are largerly undervaluating the #power of #technology.

Most programmers are not well versed about #history, and it's a pity. There's a lot to learn for us, from history.

Technology is probably the most powerful and effective way to change the world. Most changes in human organizations have been allowed by technological innovations: from fire to boats, from bronze to iron, through argricolture, writing, counting, roads, from sword to guns...

Technology can ....

@ciaby @pnathan @ajroach42

Technology can change the world for the better or for the worse.

It can disrupt "the current economic system".

And that's why #capitalists are in a hurry to keep #hackers under control.

So, I don't think that the "current economic system" should be a problem for hackers.

We CAN throw away the web.

I really think it (I work with browser all the day, I know the stack pretty well...).

From scratch, with the lessons learned, it will take a fraction of what it took.

@Shamar @ajroach42 @pnathan
That's possible, and somehow is already happening.
What I'm talking about, however, goes much deeper than that. I'm talking about open hardware infrastructures, where every component is documented, there are no binary blobs or proprietary firmware .
Very important is also the instruction set, because what we have now (x86/amd64) is incredibly bloated and full of backward compatibility shit.
RISC-V is a step in the right direction. If only the hardware wasn't so expensive... ;)

@ciaby @ajroach42 @pnathan

Interesting point. You're right.

We cannot actually trust the hardware, either.

But... I'm a software guy.
I'm more concerned about the way we connect and use the hardware than the hardware itself.

Indeed, everything I've had to learn about hardware while developing my x86_64 OS has been a pain.

So, YES!

We need more research on the open hardware too.

There are only 2 things that I'd like to preserve keep: little endiannes and 64bit longs.

Please. 😇

@Shamar @ciaby @ajroach42 Bold claim: open source or non-open source hardware doesn't matter when deployed at scale.

the essential problems today are, in a sense, all software, mediated by the scale.

@pnathan @ciaby @ajroach42

I do not know actually.
I literally know nothing about #hardware.

But my insight is that probably, #cheep #OpenHardware and #simple #distributed #software #systems could change the world.

I have a dream: one low power mail server in every house.
End to end mail encryption everywhere.

Unfortunatly no one seem interested in such a huge business opportunity.

Sad.

@Shamar @ciaby @ajroach42

ah jeeze man, think of the sysadmin needs.

the mail servers fail. the administration is confusing because docs aren't perfect, so it gets misconfigured. the network goes down. baby pukes on server and it fails to boot. server is overloaded by volume of spam.

then the task is outsourced to a guy interested in managing the emails....... whoop whoop we're recentralizing.

@pnathan @ciaby @ajroach42

Oh, no I can't think that it's not possible.

It's not easy, but we buy and sell firewalls, routers, wifi spots... we can sell mail server too.

And with E2E encryption by default, do we really need spam filters?

@Shamar @ciaby @ajroach42 my Inner Young Geek wants to argue that actual configurable systems are actually not used in the home outside and that mail servers cross that barrier between appliance and administrating-needing machine.

but let's not rabbit trail onto that. ;-)

more my contention and question is: should we expect a member of cyberspace to be knowledgable in minor sysadmin?

I argue yes! we expect people to be able to refill their oil in cars, right?

@pnathan ... no?

There's a whole industry out there of shops that only exist because people don't change their own oil.

@ajroach42 changing oil isn't refilling oil.

one you just stick a can of oil in, the other requires draining the system, changing the filter, etc. much more specialized tooling & environment to do it right.

6 @pnathan @ajroach42

We do not learn car hacking at primary school because it's a specific skills set with little effect on a person growth.

Computational thinking is a completely different things.

Even if you don't code, the ability to think clearly about a problem, decomposing it into small pieces, debugging an argument... are all skills useful beyond the computer use.

It's literally a matter of power and freedom, because who is able to do that has a strong advantage over everybody else.

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@Shamar @pnathan @ajroach42

in the UK they are now starting to teach this at junior school level (this is for children at biological ages 5-7, which is called Key Stage 1 here)

When I grew up in 1980s it was only taught in high school at age 14+, to those who had opted to take Computer Studies (a introductory CS course)

bbc.co.uk/guides/z3whpv4

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