We need a multi-national, publicly funded research organization akin to CERN/within CERN, whose whole purpose is to develop a state-of-the-art browser that's not Chromium-based. Make #Google follow our lead, rather than us having to follow Google.

If the Web could be developed using public money, why not a modern browser? Public funding would remove the Mozilla problem of them having to depend on Google.

With the amount of money governments waste annually, we could fund this AND Mozilla.

There could be incentive problems here as well, of course, like governments threatening to withdraw funding in case a certain backdoor isn't included, or if it blocks ads too aggressively and some corporate-funded 'representative' starts receiving pushback from the industry etc, but which is why it would need to:

- Be funded by a wider variety of states than the Five/Nine Eyes members.

- Developed entirely in the open, each important change reviewed by a committee of experts from the public.

@MatejLach But how would you unseat Chrome at this point? Google have the incumbent advantage and the platform advantage. Technical excellence is only part of the story.

@cbowdon That's definitely going to be a challenge, but #Google did some smart marketing by having ads IRL, like in trains and such, even in smaller countries if the % of connected users was high enough.

Since it would be publicly funded, you could also install it on computers in publicly-funded educational institutions. A lot of software spreads by children installing it for their parents. If students are using it at school, they're likely to install it at home.

@MatejLach Ooh that last one is a good one. That’s what MS/Apple/Google are trying after all. You wouldn’t necessarily need CERN-like levels of funding to achieve it.

@cbowdon @MatejLach
but wouldn't you need CERN-like levels of fuding to develop a browser that keeps up with the moving target of shitty WHATWG standards?

@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Also why build a state of the art shit whose shape has beed already defined by #Google instead of building something new and better?
Something following a totally different vision?

@Shamar
I think to pull regular users in, we'd have to start with today's web. But once we have sway in the committees, you can begin to redefine what state of the art web should look like.

@Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

I think we need a #CERN of #Informatics, but it should start from a simple vision and build what it takes to get there from the ground up.

I have a vision to propose: all people should be able to read, understand and modify each software they use or feed with their data.

Modern Web is not going to survive such vision, so building a browser is wasting money imho.

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@Shamar@mastodon social It won't work. Just take some time to, say, explain recursion or graph algorithms, image compression or even cryptography math to a totally untrained user. We will never get to a point of end users to read or understand their software. IMHO, trying to do so is a waste of time that could better be spent on building more ethical solutions that just work for this crowd.
@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon My position is that they should be *able* to (perhaps with a little training), but not obligated to.

@alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Guys, that's just because we are at the hieroglyphs of #Informatics.

If it's difficult to explain it's because it's primitive. Let's invent the right alphabet and every kid will be able to learn programming at the primary school.

@Shamar No. It's not just the alphabet and language. It's the alphabet and language and a formal approach flexible enough to express *all* the science and knowledge of its age. Actual code is difficult to end users but still the most trivial aspect about writing any piece of usable software.
@alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I think the current approach to computing is not sustainable. It is akin to Egyptian priests keeping a secret of solstices. We need to find a way to make this knowledge go mainstream.

@Shamar We're at a point where some adults have issues understanding higher math, some even have real issues learning to master natural language to understand complex texts or express themselves. And we actually did invent an alphabet to help these folks: Icons. Symbols. Easy interactions. So far this works well. Will we be able to do meaningful programming on that level?
@alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon in simpler systems, the meaning of "meaningful programming" might be a lot different than it is in bloated corporate software. just want to get that noted.

@grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

We need to be like Moses.

We can all see how badly broken is current IT.
We can all see how much power we have (which ultimately is much much more we are fooled to think).
We call all see how hard corporations try to lock us in, layer over layer.

Can we think the promised land?
No.
Just like ancient scribes couldn't think of a phonetic alphabet.

@grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

But we can try new roads.

We can experiment.

We can teach kids that they can reinvent the future in a different way.

Not just with our lessons but with our code and our example.

It IS possible.
Yes there's a lot of complexity to subdue, we still lack fundamental tools like Egyptians lacked the number zero.
But we need #hope to look for them! ;-)

@Shamar I think we very often fall victim to oversimplification because we have totally lost sight of how incredibly much specialized we already are - and how extremely basic and "trivial" some of the issues users are struggling with actually are. Google, Apple, ... are successful because they do better here, no matter why they do that.
@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Im 6 hour I teached to 22 yo kids what is defined at tesio.it/documents/vademecum.t plus basic networking (IP packets, IP addresses, DHCP, DNS and routing).

We did a simulation of packet routing with paper packets and they understood MitM and DNS poisoning by themselves.

The teacher proposed to add an our to explain one time pad encryption.

1/

@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

We also talked about robots, automata, cyborgs, and thus about the relation between freedom and autonomy.
We talked about surveillance even if I never used this word and about mass conditioning, polarization, hate, market segmentation.
We listed the website they knew and noticing that they were all from US, talked about geopolitics.

It IS possible.

@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Sorry not "22 yo kids" but "22 ten yo kids".

Just to clarify before someone call me an ageist (if such thing exists).

@Shamar And now, provide those kids with, say, a batch of hardware and the most simple fully featured implementation of something like e-mail. Do you think they will have a chance to understand what happens, let alone fix it? If that was possible, most programmers apparently are pretty dumb, looking at how much time is spent on fixing ...
@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

My take on that is that most of the required info is already out there, but I am all for simplifying it.

I don't think that would lead to some massive influx of programmers, because some people just have different passions like painting, music and such and some just want to watch TV.

There's a pretty large artist community on the Fediverse, don't think they're much interested in the tech side and that's honestly fine.

@Shamar @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

But why? Is playing an instrument as simple as reading and writing? Is sculpting? I agree that it should be as approachable to these that want to get in. I just don't think the interest is as universal as reading and writing is.

@MatejLach @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Computers are just convoluted mirrors of our minds.

Programming is a fundamental method of personal expression, and the more pervasive computing will be the more obvious this thing will be to everybody.

"Don't make me think", easy UI that are neither simple nor composable, are the exact opposite of the freedom I want for my daughters.

Who is keen to not make you think, what to think for you and decide what you think.

Google anybody?

@z428 @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

What is important is that those of us who are technically minded listen to these who create culture and create friendly tools for them to create more of it.

@MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon idk, you need to know a lot of "engineeringy" stuff to get things done with digital art tools
you need to use logical thinking for setting up complex things in Blender or Krita
we are already forced to learn a large subset of MS Office, why couldn't we learn UNIX(or hopefully Plan 9) instead?

@grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Well, am not saying we shouldn't But many people learn a specific tool to achieve a specific tasks. Things like operating systems, programming and such are such open-ended things that unless you're creatively interested in them, there doesn't seem to be as much of a point in doing so.

@MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

I think the primary reason why we'd want to teach everyone programming isn't so that they come up with new ways of implementing some part of an operating system, but so that they can make minor adjustments to the software they use on a daily basis, without being dependent on other programmers' willingness to implement such a feature or fix a particular bug.

@MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

It'd be awesome to get to the point where "fork it if you disagree" is a viable option for everyone.

@Wolf480pl Yes, but way more than that I would hope people finally got away from that high frequency forking and "my way or the highway" kind of community to some sort of actual corporation again, willing to iron out even personal differences and come to a consensus. But that's possibly another thing.
@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

@Wolf480pl Yes, but way more than that I would hope people finally got away from that high frequency forking and "my way or the highway" kind of community to some sort of actual cooperation again, willing to iron out even personal differences and come to a consensus. But that's possibly another thing.
@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

@z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon
Maybe it's just me not looking in the right place, but I don't see too many forks recently...

Anyway, IMO it's better for a program to have a coherent vision behind its design, rather than have design-by-committee. And how do we check which vision is better, if not by forking?

@Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon honestly, a BDFL 'vision' model isn't much better than a traditional committee model

@a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon Either approach can go too far.

Personally I lean towards a BDFL 'vision' model, but not if they don't listen to some committee and fold that into their vision.

@alcinnz @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon

I think it's important to make it clear what we mean by committee.

When I say committee, I think one where each person tries to achieve their own goals at all costs, and push the whole design into a direction that's more favorable to them.

If you have people honestly cooperate and be open to logical arguments, pointing out each others mistakes and willing to be proven wrong, that's another story.

@a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon

What about BOFH? 🤣

Just kidding...

The point of what we are saying is that if everyone in the planet was able to hack his operating system (or whatever), you woudn't need BDFL. You woudn't need maintainers or funding. And no corporation could win against free software.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
>You woudn't need maintainers or funding.

you might; after all, you need infrastructure to share patches, etc over

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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon This works best if the modifications they make don't mess things up. Eg. if I have a patched version of ls but other software wants to use ls, that might be a problem. So we need good package management tools.

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@a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

It is at least internally consistent.

The result of design-by-committee usually ends up being a bunch of mutually incompatible ideas bolted together with duct tape. See: SQL.

Or something way more complicated than it needs to. See X.500.

@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @cbowdon

Exactly.

This would disrupt programming as a job?

No, we still have novelists, journalists and secretaries despite everybody is able to write.

Would it disrupt the Silicon Valley.

Yes. Yes it would. 😇

@Wolf480pl That software they use on a daily basis also includes things such as power management, device drivers or firmware. Where do you draw the line? What about that "bug" of your BIOS always throttling your CPU "too much" when you're off AC?
@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

@z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon I'd say wherever they are comfortable drawing the line.

We shouldn't be the ones to draw it. But until some of these breakthroughs Shamer's talking about happens at the hardware level, their line almost certainly won't include device drivers.

@alcinnz That's what I mean. And also possibly not network protocols or stuff such as multithreading. It seems strange to want to make solutions to complex problems randomly easy. Why can't ordinary users do the math to build a highrise that doesn't collapse? Because it's complex. As a problem. Not just because we lack better tools.
@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon

@z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon
The only line I draw is between "it does X in this particular case, let's see if we can make it do Y instead" and "this code is pretty complicated, let's see if we can come up with a better design that simplifies this part and everything that touches it".

I don't draw the line between a messaging app and power management code in the kernel.

@Wolf480pl Yes. That happens regularly, even in the programming world done by experts, and it fails almost all the time because people tried to "simplify" an inherently complex thing they just considered too complex because they never managed to fully understand even the problem it tried to solve. See CORBA vs. SOAP. ;)
@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

@z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon

I think this is why, when contributing to a FOSS project, or doing ad-hoc modifications to locally-installed versions of programs you use, you usually start with bugfixes, small tweaks, maybe some small features.

I think it'd be cool if more people got to that level.
And I think it's ok if most people stay at that level.
Not everyone needs to be able to refactor things or rewrite them from scratch.

@Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon

Yeah... I think most people should be content they have been teached to write their name and to modify a shopping list.

What do they want?
Writing open letters like Émile Zola?
By themselves?

It's unwise... they would end in trouble because, let's be honest, they are not smart enough!
It's better they trust us, the Writing class, to think for them.

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@Shamar Yes..... and *this* is the actual problem: We don't want inclusive and enabling technology that gives a lot of users abilities that are easily accessible. We want them to learn our way (knowing they never will even remotely be able to walk it) rather than using our "superiority" to watch them, listen to them and help them solve problems. That ...

@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon

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@Shamar ... is what helped Apple and Google becoming big - they did just the opposite. Of course they did it for reasons of profit and market share, but it *still* helped end users who *still* have few better choices by now. It won't change this way.

@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon

@Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon

That's a first step, ok?
Also, IMO writing a kernel from scratch is already a level comparable to writing a novel, and we don't expect everyone to be able to write a novel.

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@MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I kinda agree but learning to use shell scripting for getting basic things done (in a good OS with a good shell language) is not much harder than learning Excel. And if all you learn is basic pipes and how to launch things, that can be used for the same things: launching applications, saving and converting files.
You don't need to understand them deeply either.

@grainloom @MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Converting between different formats covers a lot of what we programmers do anyways!

@MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

Imagine if we didn't have a phonetic alphabet.

Would you be saying: "There are so many things people might desire to say... so many words to learn... and to adapt... that unless you are creatively interested in them, there doesn't seem to be as much of a point in doing so"

Guys we are programmer raised with this shit! Thinking that it's needed is fundamental to our psyche.

You know, I'm crazy like Hell.

That's why I don't care! 🤣

@Shamar ... both conceptual and mere implementation bugs in existing code, even for people who know both the alphabet and the concepts.😉
@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

As I said we lack fundamental tools like the zero.

Try to think #math without the zero. Imagine facing a system of differential equations without being able to think that the zero exists.

That's what we do each fucking day with Informatics.

@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
I got 6 hours (extended to 7 because the teacher saw how dad the kid were when they realised the bell was ringing and I hadn't explained the crypto algorithm at the end of the sheet).

Give me 2 hours a week for 3 years starting at 8 yo, and they will be able to use #freedombone like a pro.
Give me 6 h/w and they'll code their own protocol on #Oberon.

@z428

They do 'better' because they, through inordinate market power accrued through tactics at least as shady as anti-competitive hiring practices, get to define what 'better' means.

@Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon

@deejoe @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon imho there were/are better systems that give users more freedom that were commercial failures because they weren't marketed properly or weren't lucrative enough for developers looking for a quick profit. Linux package managers are better than app stores, but app stores don't require you to share your source.

@deejoe @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon or look at DRM. big money and power hungry megacorps looooove DRM, but it's objectively terrible for everyone else.

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