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Again and again. πŸ˜‘οΈ
Early 2000s: Laptop with 2GB of RAM and one CPU core that lets you run a desktop, dev tools and a local database well.
Late 2010s: Laptop with 16GB of fast RAM, SSD and 8 cores runs into trouble having and open at the same time.

@z428

It might be the Intel's BIOS vulnerabilities and the OSes' patches to make them more secure. All that takes some resources. That is my theory, I am not an expert.

@Vamp898 No, "just" Slack in a Firefox window. Tried both and decided against the Slack app because it seemed to be even heavier. 😟 I miss the days of chat / communication clients being lightweight and fast.

@z428 Well i use riot which is pretty lightweight compared to slack.

So these days never gone :D its just your company :P

@Vamp898 I was thinking more along the lines of IRC and early XMPP clients actually. πŸ˜‰ Riot, on my machine and in a browser window, doesn't seem *that* much more lightweight.

@z428 I still use IRC every day^^

riot needs 113mb for me in konqueror

slack needs bout 135mb in konqueror

Thats not lightweight, yes, but its still okay i'd say when you know that most smartphones have 4-6GB RAM

XMPP is kinda dead nowadays, yes :(

@Vamp898 Unfortunately no one in my environment uses IRC or XMPP anymore. I actually *do* agree Riot and Slack do have some advantages (i.e. we also use videoconferencing through Slack), it just feels like optimization hasn't happened at all.

@z428
For most Software, IRC is the only way to get support at all.

I only use riot for private/personal communication with family and friends

@Vamp898 We use Slack for professional communication across distributed teams in all Europe, where this channel has pretty much replaced e-mal throughout the last year. So working around this is rather difficult ... 😟 They used to have an XMPP bridge before but as far as I see, it has been discontinued and never really worked well anyway.

@z428 I try to not work with companies that use Slack.

@Vamp898 In our environment, Slack has become some sort of consensus, mainly driven (as far as I can tell) by several teams of distributed developers who were used to and really productive using Slack, so it got rolled out across the whole company because at some point you *need* to make a decision and possibly each of these decisions has its advantages and drawbacks. Badness is that Slack so far has become sort of a "de-facto standard" for this kind of stuff at least by now. 😟

@z428
Well most teams switched from extremely horrible tools to Slack and then seen that as an relief.

Companys who use bad software like slack most likely used even worse software in the past.

Companys who like bad software just like bad software :D

@Vamp898 At least I agree with the first part. We've (in our part of the company) been using XMPP before, with several different clients and a dedicated server, and it sucked in virtually every possible way. I dislike Slack for being rather heavy and proprietary as can be, but in terms of feature set, availability, usability, there is very little left to be desired. In most cases it "just works". That's one of the bad things that makes discussing alternatives rather difficult.

@z428
I dont think XMPP can be compared to Slack.

Slack is rather an IRC replacement than an XMPP (and most of Slack Technology was based on IRC in the beginning. It was nothing more than an fancy IRC GUI when it first came out)

" In most cases it "just works"."

Thats also a big issue. Admins in companys that cant make things work.

Thats why Cloud is such a big thing in the first place, most admins just suck.

@Vamp898 Well I partially agree. Maybe Slack *is* an IRC replacement, but one that adds a lot of features users (even in my environment) have been desperately wanting from both IRC and XMPP and never really had. Like: Sane user management. Easy interaction one-to-one, one-to-many, conferences. Sane handling of files or images added to conversations. A lot of these things is about UI, indeed. But that's, in the end, what decides about whether (or not) users are likely to accept or even ...

@z428
I rarely, if ever, seen an well documented slack migration that showed what exact features slack does have other solutions dont have, rating how important those are and so on.

I still stay at my point that most admins just suck and aren't able to make alternatives work good.

@Vamp898 ... be productive using a certain technology. About administration... well, I tend to disagree here. To me it's mainly a matter of specialization. After all, we *do* buy hardware built by someone else. We *do* use operating systems developed by other people (rather than rolling our own). We do so, repeatedly, because buying these things is both more economically efficient, safer and maybe more sustainable than trying to re-invent the wheel on our own. In a way, cloud based ...

@z428
I often hear that, but i dont understand it.

Some people say "Why use Gentoo, its re-inventing the wheel, why not just use something thats there like debian"

And i say "Because its easier, faster and simpler with Gentoo"

And then the conversation ends because the other person doesn't know how to properly use Gentoo, all they can say is that "I can not be faster with Gentoo" and thats it.

I stay at my point strong, just because an admin can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done

@Vamp898 That greatly depends upon the criterias you use to measure "simpler, faster, easier". πŸ˜‰ That, again, greatly depends upon the size, business, requirements of your organization. Right now, here, in example, I'm still desperately trying to hire another admin having *some* Linux experience. This position has been open now for at least two years. It's not, like, that I can choose from a set of candidates and pick the one using my distro of choice. I have to find ways to ...

@Vamp898 ... make a somewhat complex system manageable, and in this case "easy" means "easy for someone who's not necessarily knee-deep into Debian, Gento, whatever distro you use". Not even talking about administering a bunch of services that only add to the pile of things that need to be reliably operated while "just" providing one piece of my toolbox. It's just not working out, at the very least from an economic point of view. That's like that operating ...

@z428
That is why our Azubi are starting with Linux From Scratch as their first Linux Distribution writing their own package manager. You need the knowledge to be good and to be able to compete against Windows Admins.

I gave up on finding people that do have the knowledge we need, we only hire people where we think they could learn what we need and teach them.

@Vamp898 If your environment and company has a business model providing enough funding to be able to afford that - great. πŸ˜‰ I'd love to both learn and teach as many even low-level things as possible, but in most situations, that's anything but affordable.

@Vamp898 (By the way: Writing a custom package manager still massively is about standing on the shoulder of giants. What I meant would be more along the lines of teaching your trainees Assembler and tell them to write an operating system kernel of their own on plain hardware... πŸ˜‰ )

@z428
All i know is that 99% of Linux Admins don't know how to properly use package managers and also don't know how to handle errors because they have no clue how things internally work.

There is a reason why MINIX exists, there is a reason why i learned Assembler when i went to collage.

You only really understand things, when you implemented them by yourself.

We had so many admins who said who are experts and then failed with Gentoo due to the lack of basic understanding how things work

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@Vamp898 ... system example: For the vast majority of companies, it would be totally out of scope to develop a custom operating system kernel. It's extremely expensive, it's much likely to be not their core business objective, it doesn't make real sense at all.

@Vamp898 ... services for certain aspects seem just a next logical step here. But we need ways how to make them less "locked-up", less proprietary.

(All along with this, personal experience: Maintaining a matrix server at its current state is a broken sad mess, something I hardly would like to have to do in a reliable way for a larger structure...).

@z428 @Vamp898
I went trough the whole thread and puh...heavy stuff πŸ˜…

Well just a few words from my side as one of the admins.
I was and still I'm against slack from many poi ts of view. The Problem was not "they can't bring online something that works" but the Story took Part from the "devs say it is nice, we trust in devs and ignore our admins".
The war is still not over for me, but right now I was defeated and @z428 know exactly what I think about that πŸ’©

@ShinIce We are on the same boat here. Still would have preferred something like RocketChat or Mattermost, something that lets us keep control over our data... 😐
@Vamp898

@z428 yeah, I said mattermost, and all his benefits but still same point "slack...devs...all fine...need...we don't care"
@Vamp898

@ShinIce We (FLOSS guys) probably should ask ourselves why, these days, *developers* choose something like Slack rather than, say, Matrix that they also could contribute to, improve, gain reputation in the community. Talking IRC, I actually tried introducing this internally in our late XMPP days... bad idea. πŸ˜‘
@Vamp898

@z428 @ShinIce
I don't know developers using slack beside some hipster upstarts and i know a _lot_ of developers

@Vamp898 @ShinIce I guess it depends. Coming *both* from a Linux/Perl/Shell/Sysadmin *and* a Java/Java EE/"Enterprise" environment, I see it's a matter of groups. Pretty much, like, no one of the FLOSS developers I know actually uses Windows. On the other side, some of the Java crowd *do* use Linux on their desktop but usually some sort of Ubuntu and more for reasons of convenience than because they care about its political aspects or even want to hack their operating system. After ...

@Vamp898 @ShinIce ... all, why should they? I'm into computers, in example, not cars. In computers, I *do* want to know how stuff works and tinker with these things to some detail level. With my car, I don't - I do have a very skilled engineer next door who is ages ahead of me in terms of skills and experience. Why should I waste my time dealing with cars trying to get to his level of experience just to fix something in there? He'll always be better than me. Specialization matters.πŸ˜‰

@z428 @ShinIce
If you are a car mechanic and the only thing you can do is change window wipers, engine oil and tires, you won't get hired.

You are expected to be able to repair everything in the car. The electric, the transmission, the interior, everything.

And you do that by using manuals, because there is a manual for every car that tells you exactly how to do everything.

All you do is learn the basics and then apply informations from manuals

@Vamp898 No, that's exactly not how it works. *Every* car garage I know is in some way specialized, either on a certain brand of cars (especially when it comes to eletronics and software aspects, for various and at times dubious reasons) or on certain parts of the car. My engineer is focussed on, well, the engine, gears, transmission system. Whenever there are electric issues or, like, issues with the car body, he refers to specialists (especially, in example, when it comes to ...
@ShinIce

@z428 @ShinIce
And its the same for IT. Learn the basics, apply information's from manual's.

And most admins skip the basics because they think they will never need it and then fail to understand manual's.

Non of our Windows Admins was capable of debugging issues on Windows servers by applying information from Microsoft's Windows Internals Book. I did it in the end, I, as a Linux Admin.

Because I understand the basics, I was capable if doing it even though I haven't touched Windows in years

@Vamp898 I don't object against "learning from the basics". But you need to have a meaningful definition of what "the basics" are. If you do this *right* (including wiring, electronics on the motherboard, operating system, network connectivity and everything that happens on the wire in terms of signals and codecs, ...), we'll end up with just a handful of people being able to, say, administer something like NextCloud or Mastodon because it takes ages to learn enough ...

@ShinIce

@Vamp898 ... of that to *really* have sound idea of what's going on. How far, in example, would you be able to debug what's happening inside a stacked Dell switch cluster?

@ShinIce

@z428 @ShinIce
Well my Job description says "Senior GNU/Linux Systemadminstrator and Application Developer" so not at all :P its not my job

@Vamp898 How large is your organization? In my environment (both professionally and in terms of enthusiasm), even "application developer" in the majority of cases is *way* more specialized (like "Senior Backend Dev Java" or "Junior Frontend Developer"). And for good reasons...

@ShinIce

@z428 @ShinIce
I carry that job description since 3 companies.

First one had 120'000 employee, second one had a few houndret and the company now does have around 2'000

But for me it fits pretty well because what i do is generic application development, i do several different things. If all an developer does in your company is Backend Java Development, than thats his Job. There is nothing wrong with it.

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