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Ok, I'm really angry. GTK4 will REMOVE ACCESSIBILITY FEATURES: gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/iss

No screen reader or braille displays, no eye tracking for the paralyzed, no information to screen magnifiers so they can move while typing, no . 100% fuck you GTK. Fuck. You.

What does this mean for disabled people? Back to Windows for you!

@jookia dang, no wonder some accessibility in the new Gnome release even in testing have issues. see bugs.debian.org/913978

@jookia thanks for posting this... this is a shame indeed...

@jookia what are they thinking?? gnome will lose 100% of its users if the disabled people leave
@jookia Well it sort of makes sense to not keep a public key and UI logger API (that's literally what it does since at least gtk2).

But breaking accessibility? Oh shit please, no.
Add some authorisation thing (like Orca or braille being the only one which can use the key & UI logging, not everyone).

@lanodan Yeah it's a tough situation but I (as a developer) would rather keep in broken APIs instead of removing fundamental accessibility features like that. Or at least have some kind of plan on how to fix it.

@jookia Yes, I have few applications in GTK and even if I removed at-spi2 on my machine I test support for Orca in a VM, if GTK4 means no accessibility support I'll not use it.
I'd rather keep the half broken way it works now than loose it completely.

Also given how GNOME works with Wayland… it might not be portable and just be GNOME-only which is a non-go for me.

@lanodan Thanks for testing Orca support. It's a really rough situation. :(

@jookia again?
Took them 10 years to get a11y back after gnome 2…

@jookia Well, from what I learnt from one of Jean-Philippe's talk, basically Gnome 2 had good a11y because Sun paid a dev full-time to work on it (also because this person needed a11y).
Then for Gnome 3 they chose to rewrite everything from scratch.
And since Oracle bought Sun and didn't care about FLOSS, they didn't have as paid devs and basically nobody worked on it, so it came much later on.

@jookia blaming them won't fix the thing if they don't have enough devs.

(and yeah, I do like to rant about Gnome for various reasons too)

Also remember most devs work on what they know/need/want because they do so in their free time.

Letting them know you need a11y, and maybe doing things like a bounty to get it implemented, is a more constructive approach.

@mmu_man Probably just get word out. Try and make it so applications don't use GTK+ 4.

@jookia it won't work for long. When everyone already uses it you'll be left alone with an unmaintained GTK+3.

@mmu_man True. But even things like GTK2+ are kept on life support and usable

@m4sk1n KDE's a11y isn't as good as GNOME's, but it's getting there. There's effort bieng put towards it.

@jookia Reading that issue thread, it seems the fundamental issue is that there's not enough developers interested in maintaining that accessibility stack. More devs NEED to step up!

Unfortunately I'm too busy making a gorgeous voice interface for the JS-free web, amongst other things.

@alcinnz I asked about in the bug tracker, but it's unclear what the actual roadmap is towards fixing this let alone putting development effort in

@jookia @lesbianhacker Meanwhile KDE is trying to dramatically improve accessibility after years of falling short of where Gnome/GTK was; hopefully then that initiative is complete by the time GTK4 rolls out to stable distros.
@jookia GTK isn't the only option; Qt and KDE go to great lengths for things to remain accessible for all types of users:

https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/accessible.html
https://community.kde.org/Accessibility

@kick I'll have to investigate this and see how it goes. Maybe I'll try Qt for my own projects if GTK doesn't stop this

Back to the command line, works fine with a braille display, no matter the BS Gnome pulls.

@murks I think I've discussed this a bit before, but the command line isn't for everyone. This specifically excludes blind people who can't use a command line.

@murks On top of that, braille displays are expensive as hell and the command line doesn't go too well with screen readers

@jookia But I guess Qt on the other hand does support it, right?

@jookia and developers think the only reason open source is unpopular is because they're not good at marketing

@wheinous @jookia To be fair, this problem exists in all tech culture. The proprietary world is full of the same type of shit. It's just they have PR departments and stuff to bury their stuff.

Apple scrapping the headphone jack instead of just adjusting their phone's design to compensate. Microsoft forcing the installation of Windows updates, ensuring any damage done by them is permanent.

GNOME's devs are elitist dirtbags, but their bullshit isn't unique to open source.

@KitsuneAlicia @wheinous Yeah but proprietary software tends to have better accessibility features. Look at Windows, Android, iOS

@jookia @wheinous Ah. I see now. Sorry, I misread the intentions. Yes, you're both correct.

Between OCR and whatnot and the fact that many CLI tools are lacking in GUI equivalents in the first place, accessibility is a huge barrier of entry to open source.

@KitsuneAlicia @wheinous @jookia we really aren't. The accessibility features are planned to be added back in, hopefully before GTK4's release. Accessibility is important to GNOME, but since developments that way have largely sat untouched, new development like GTK 4 can cause some breakage.

We absolutely intend to sort this out before GTK4 is released and widely adopted.

@brainblasted @KitsuneAlicia @wheinous I'm glad to hear that. Is this written down somewhere more official than Mastodon? Looking at the GTK issue tracker, there are no accessibility bugs marked for its 4.0 milestone.

@brainblasted @KitsuneAlicia @jookia @wheinous awesome. The way it read wasn't necessarily a done deal, so I am still holding out hope.

@brainblasted @KitsuneAlicia @wheinous @jookia
would be cool if you could just choose to build with gtk3 like in gentoo

@jookia Are we right in reading this as an issue that exists because their wayland interface doesn't handle this correctly or provide an alternative?

@violet I'm not entirely sure. I think Wayland's lack of key snooping helps seal the deal on removing the API, but GTK+ is the one providing the API for key snooping to clients too.

@jookia Yeah, they're using the "modern api" argument for removing it :p

@violet Everyone's in agreement that a modern API is required. But maybe even a prototype of that would be good to have before removing support for real world users

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