Ok, I'm really angry. GTK4 will REMOVE ACCESSIBILITY FEATURES: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/issues/1739
No screen reader or braille displays, no eye tracking for the paralyzed, no information to screen magnifiers so they can move while typing, no . 100% fuck you GTK. Fuck. You.
What does this mean for disabled people? Back to Windows for you!
@jookia dang, no wonder some accessibility in the new Gnome release even in testing have issues. see bugs.debian.org/913978
@kaniini yeah :( why they gotta be like that
@jookia thanks for posting this... this is a shame indeed...
@jookia What the actual fuck?
@drwho Here's a bit more context: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/2019-November/msg00007.html
@lanodan Yeah it's a tough situation but I (as a developer) would rather keep in broken APIs instead of removing fundamental accessibility features like that. Or at least have some kind of plan on how to fix it.
@lanodan Thanks for testing Orca support. It's a really rough situation. :(
@jookia The. Fuck.
Took them 10 years to get a11y back after gnome 2…
@mmu_man Oh really? I'm interested to hear this tale.
@jookia Well, from what I learnt from one of Jean-Philippe's talk, basically Gnome 2 had good a11y because Sun paid a dev full-time to work on it (also because this person needed a11y).
Then for Gnome 3 they chose to rewrite everything from scratch.
And since Oracle bought Sun and didn't care about FLOSS, they didn't have as paid devs and basically nobody worked on it, so it came much later on.
@mmu_man Well that's complete garbage and I hate it
@jookia blaming them won't fix the thing if they don't have enough devs.
(and yeah, I do like to rant about Gnome for various reasons too)
Also remember most devs work on what they know/need/want because they do so in their free time.
Letting them know you need a11y, and maybe doing things like a bounty to get it implemented, is a more constructive approach.
@mmu_man Probably just get word out. Try and make it so applications don't use GTK+ 4.
@jookia it won't work for long. When everyone already uses it you'll be left alone with an unmaintained GTK+3.
@mmu_man Better unmaintained and usable
@jookia unmaintained tends to become unusable.
@mmu_man True. But even things like GTK2+ are kept on life support and usable
@jookia What about a11y in qt DE-s and apps?
@m4sk1n KDE's a11y isn't as good as GNOME's, but it's getting there. There's effort bieng put towards it.
@jookia Reading that issue thread, it seems the fundamental issue is that there's not enough developers interested in maintaining that accessibility stack. More devs NEED to step up!
Unfortunately I'm too busy making a gorgeous voice interface for the JS-free web, amongst other things.
@alcinnz I asked about in the bug tracker, but it's unclear what the actual roadmap is towards fixing this let alone putting development effort in
@jookia That is very worrying!
@kick I'll have to investigate this and see how it goes. Maybe I'll try Qt for my own projects if GTK doesn't stop this
@murks So you only use command line?
@jookia I don't, but I know blind users who do.
@murks I think I've discussed this a bit before, but the command line isn't for everyone. This specifically excludes blind people who can't use a command line.
@murks On top of that, braille displays are expensive as hell and the command line doesn't go too well with screen readers
@jookia But I guess Qt on the other hand does support it, right?
@jookia I am mean I were never a friend of GTK.
@nifker I think so. I haven't tested it though.
@jookia and developers think the only reason open source is unpopular is because they're not good at marketing
Apple scrapping the headphone jack instead of just adjusting their phone's design to compensate. Microsoft forcing the installation of Windows updates, ensuring any damage done by them is permanent.
GNOME's devs are elitist dirtbags, but their bullshit isn't unique to open source.
@jookia Are we right in reading this as an issue that exists because their wayland interface doesn't handle this correctly or provide an alternative?
@violet I'm not entirely sure. I think Wayland's lack of key snooping helps seal the deal on removing the API, but GTK+ is the one providing the API for key snooping to clients too.
@jookia Yeah, they're using the "modern api" argument for removing it :p
@violet Everyone's in agreement that a modern API is required. But maybe even a prototype of that would be good to have before removing support for real world users
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