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ActivityPub Overview updated. I added GNUsocial and a cc by-sa license. 🙂

@mray
Hallo @kuketzblog , hier gibt es auch eine Variante eurer Übersicht. Finde es großartig, dass ihr euch so engagiert. Danke dafür!

@mray I appreciate the spirit, but the slogan has serious "Let me interject for a moment. What some call Linux..." vibes, which I'm not sure is intended

@hisham_hm It is. There is a vague notion out there that you can be part of the "Fediverse" but not speak ActivityPub (e.g. Diaspora). I support a definition of "Fediverse" that directly ties to that protocol. Not doing so would mean we were all in the "Fediverse" since the 70's, rendering the fresh vibes that come with the words usage basically meaningless.

Lets face it: email, XMPP, Matrix,... are all open, de-central AWESOMENESS! But they remain their own thing.

That's my spirit.

@mray Got it. It's a fair argument (though I hear there are bridges between different protocols?)

Just wanted to check if you're aware that the RMS-like tone does turn off a lot of people, which may or may not be the intention for an advocacy piece. GNU supporters haven't been good at outreaching beyond their own audience for a while now, so not sure if it's a good pattern to follow.

Hubzilla's main Protocol is Zot and ActivityPub support is a plug-in. And isn't enabled by default as far as I know.

Hubzilla by default is a part of the fediverse but not "activitypub network"
Many do consider XMPP and Matrix a part of the fediverse.

@mray @hisham_hm While I support the narrow definition of "Fediverse" (I think "two Fedi software can always talk to each other" is a useful thing to be able to say), this image... is not how I would push it.

I'd be OK if this is on a page introducing APub to an audience who knows what Fedi is, but I don't think it conveys the intended message anywhere else.

@Parnikkapore @hisham_hm

Unfortunately there is room for interpretation and nobody can know exactly what is/isn't "Fediverse".

How would you push for the "two Fedi software can always talk to each other" ?

@mray @hisham_hm I'm not sure, actually. I can use that definition (clarifying of needed) myself, but that's about all I can think of right now.

Overall, I think it's not a good idea to strongly fight against the flow when it comes to use of words. Not even linguists do that.

@Parnikkapore @mray Especially linguists! The good ones at least! (descriptivism vs. prescriptivism)

@MrsMouse I didn't realize, too. That's why it wasn't there initially. But seems like there is a plugin that does the trick. 😋

@dhalucario Sure. It is licensed CC-BY-SA, you don't even have to ask me. 🙂

@mray also WordPress? Can I follow WordPress blogs from my mastodon account?

@ueberlegend The wordpress site needs to have the plugin up and running. Don't know what it does though. I assume comments and following blogposts?

@mray Mattermost is an Open Source tool similar to Slack that you might want to consider including in the next iteration of your infographic - mattermost.com/

@richmccue Mattermost is nice, but it seems they don't speak ActivityPub 😐 . There basically is no way to connect to any project shown in the infographic. That's why I wouldn't consider them to be "Fediverse".

@drq @mray интересно, я не знал что ворлдпресс и некстклауд работает на активитипаб, а какой там функционал федерации?

@mray This is the first I've heard of Bookwyrm, but I like the idea. Are there ways to import data from Goodreads onto it? (Unfortunately, as a writer I have to maintain a GR profile, to monitor my reputation... but I don't like it.)

@Corfiot I know you can make a point that email (for example) is "fediverse", too. But that's the whole point of the image: To the degree it can be right – it is meaningless. Only ActivityPub is the federated superglue that connects different types of instances in a meaningful way.

In my eyes the whole idea behind "Fediverse" is the ability to go beyond the boundaries of your immediate network and reach out to others.

@mray There are other protocols much closer to activitypub used for blogging, social networking and microblogging before reaching the extreme of email. Also, bridges. The minute you begin excluding instances and protocols just to make fedi "digestible", you've cancelled its main purpose.

So, no, it's not meaningless to speak correctly and precisely. The fediverse is a higher-level concept than activitypub.

@Corfiot By meaningless I mean that technically many protocols (like email) may be open, federated, and generally awesome. But if you go with that interpretation everybody with a mail address joined the "Fediverse" even before the web was a thing, and there is literally nothing noteworthy about it.

In my eyes "Fediverse" isn't just a high-level concept but something tangible, in the sense of people being able to actually put the concept to use. AP is the only thing that seems to do that today.

@mray I agree that the AP ecosystem is the current trend, yes. I object to the way your expressed your feelings, not the feelings themselves.

I think the popularity of AP is a good thing. I am, however, trying to keep the terms correct, because the crowds coming in from twitter take the easy way to understanding what fedi, AP, instances, etc are and unless we're precise and careful, the meanings will become soup and we'll be right back where we started.

Also, what if we actually tell people email is part of the fediverse in a way? Maybe they'll realize that what's happening in social media is already happening in email, too, and start leaving the freemail providers that sell their users' souls for a 5GB inbox. Now *that* is putting the concept to use.

@Corfiot We seem to be on the same page. AP does what email did, but on steroids. That makes it go from cool to super cool. "Fediverse" is just a buzzword that tries to cover that and isn't exclusively applicable to AP – we know there can be a successor that tops it again!

I'm just not ok with other projects (Matrix, XMPP, Diaspora,...) pointing out that "coolness", too, by referring to what email did back then. When actually AP is the hot shit because it federates Federation.

@mray XMPP had federation before AP and activitystreams even existed. Email has survived all these years because it exemplified the concept of federation based on standards. Even newsgroups were a form of federation. What is the problem with people knowing that and talking about it? I'm not getting what you mean.

Also, what do you mean "AP federates federation"? How is AP significantly superior to other federation protocols, at a conceptual level? I could claim ZOT is better. Or that Diaspora had groups before AP came to be. I'm totally missing your point.

@Corfiot I think the moment you tell people they have been part of the "Fediverse" all along, they'll either ignore you or think you are fooling them. Or both. 😄

@mray Yes, so this is all about putting PR above function and truth. Which I am 100% against.

Educate people, don't dumb down complex ideas to the point of distorting the purpose they exist. If you're too lazy to explain why they've been federating all along ever since the 90's and how this has proven federation as a concept, you'd better not be telling them anything cause you're distorting facts and hurting decentralization.

@Corfiot I put up that image because I wasn't happy with another one I saw. Nobody can claim to know the correct meaning of "Fediverse", right? So what you see is my interpretation. I'm not distorting.

Being hardworking to educate people to understand complex things happening since the 90s wasn't what I was going for with that image. (email is from the 70's btw)

Step on a soapbox and shout to the world how we have been "Fedizens" since 1971 – if you think that does decentralization a favor.

@mray
I don't need a soapbox. If anything, you're the one promoting stuff and making marketing materials that are inaccurate. I am trying to discuss this with you, you don't agree, hey, knock yourself out man, it's the whole point of all this.

I'm just sad that you feel you need a trend bandwagon to jump onto, when the actual plain reality of what is happening is a much stronger argument for decentralization. Lots of people worked for federation for decades, not just the AP crowd.

In any case, whatever you may personally believe, words have meaning and no matter how you spin it for any agenda -good or evil-, federation is not a single protocol. AP is not all of fedi.

@Corfiot I agree that words have meaning. So how do you define "Fediverse" - and how do you know your definition is correct?

My image is supposed to help people to understand that the real awesomeness everybody is talking about these days ("Fediverse") only unfolds when projects talk AP - other wise it is plain, old, awesome, "boring" federation.

I want people on Mastodon to know that they can't follow people on Diaspora if it does not support AP.

@mray AP *is* "boring old federation". It's just been thrust into the public eye because the environment matured for it to shine.

As for diaspora, you can explain to people that diaspora does not talk AP, so if they join that network they'll be on a smaller island of fedi. Not all of the fediverse is interconnected. Which is another innacuracy people promote.

You sure as hell can't claim diaspora is not part of the fediverse.

You want to get people onboard the "fediverse" bandwagon, I want people to get onboard the "federation" bandwagon. We are not the same.

@Corfiot Sure, if you think AP is like any other federation, and "Fediverse" does not necessarily mean it is possible to reach each other in there – that's fine. I guess?🤷‍♂️

I think "Fediverse" assumes reachability not only as an abstract underlying concept. And I see AP federates federation in a way no other protocol does.

So I do claim Diaspora isn't part of the "Fediverse" and I don't know on what basis you can prove me wrong. That's why I don't even like the term "Fediverse".

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