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@Tuxi ⁂ Was stört's die deutsche Eiche, wenn sich die Sau an ihr reibt?

Was stört's den Friendica-Nutzer, wenn der Riesennode, auf dem er ist, von 8000 Mastodon-Instanzen blockiert wird, weil Friendica Mastodons Quote-Post-Opt-In/Opt-Out nicht berücksichtigt? Und auf über 700 *key-Instanzen, weil deren Admins gar nicht wissen, warum zum Fediblock dieses Node aufgerufen wurde, aber vorsichtshalber mal mitmachen?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte #FediblockMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Michael 🇺🇦 Quote-Posts.

Drükos bzw. Drukos.

Auf Friendica, Hubzilla & Co. das Teilen von Posts, das seit 2010 im Grunde die Standardmethode ist und die meiste Zeit die einzige verfügbare Methode war, um Posts an andere Leute weiterzuleiten.

Die Twitter-nach-Mastodon-Konvertiten, die aber den überwiegenden Teil der Fediverse-Nutzer ausmachen, kennen das als Quote-Tweets, aber auch nur als Methode, um Farbige, Schwule usw. auf Twitter zu drangsalieren. Das ist der einzige Verwendungszweck, den sie dafür kennen. Einen anderen können sie sich auch gar nicht vorstellen. Das kommt in der Twitter-Kultur so nicht vor.

Die 60% sind eben die Twitter-nach-Mastodon-Konvertiten. Und von diesen 60% "wissen" mindestens 59, daß es im Fediverse keine Quote-Posts gibt. Und mindestens 35, daß das Fediverse nur Mastodon ist.

Jetzt hat Mastodon die Einführung von Quote-Posts angekündigt. Die 60% flippen jetzt natürlich ihren Shit, vor allem die Angehörigen von Minderheiten, die auf Twitter mit Quote-Tweets drangsaliert werden.

Aaaaaber: Mastodon hat auch angekündigt, daß es einen Opt-Out- oder Opt-In-Schalter für Mastodon-Profile geben wird. Damit sollen Mastodon-Nutzer kontrollieren können, ob andere Mastodon-Nutzer ihre Tröts quote-posten können oder nicht.

Wie gut kennst du Hubzilla? Stell dir eine Berechtigungseinstellung "Darf meine Beiträge wiederholen und teilen" vor. Nur daß Mastodon kein Berechtigungssystem hat.

Und nur daß das ein Eigengezücht von Mastodon sein wird, das keinerlei Grundlage in ActivityPub hat, geschweige denn in irgendwas, was schon irgendwo implementiert ist.

Heißt mit anderen Worten: Pleroma und seine Forks, Misskey und seine Forks, Friendica und seine Forks usw. usf., die werden weiterhin allesamt Tröts von jedem Mastodon-Nutzer widerstandslost quote-posten können, egal, ob sie das qua Mastodon-Kontoeinstellungen dürfen oder nicht. Weil sie gar nicht wissen können, ob sie das dürfen oder nicht.

Auf Mastodon glaubt aber beinahe ausnahmslos jeder, dieser Opt-In oder Opt-Out ist absolut wasserdicht. Es glaubt ja auch beinahe ausnahmslos jeder, daß Mastodon die erste und dann einzige Fediverse-Software sein wird mit Quote-Posts.

Wir haben im Grunde geschätzt folgende Aufteilung:

  • 35%, die das Fediverse für nur Mastodon halten.
  • 15%, die schon mal von Misskey und/oder Friendica gehört haben, sich aber nicht vorstellen können, daß die mit Mastodon verbunden sind, weil das doch ganz was anderes ist.
  • 9%, die wissen, daß Misskey, Friendica & Co. mit Mastodon verbunden sind, die aber nicht wissen, daß Misskey, Friendica & Co. Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten können.
  • 1%, die wissen, daß andere Fediverse-Serveranwendungen Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten können. Entweder, weil sie Leuten wie @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts, @Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝ und mir aufmerksam zugehört haben, oder weil sie selbst mal was anderes als Mastodon ausprobiert haben, und zwar etwas intensiver, oder weil sie noch etwas anderes als Mastodon nebenher nutzen.
  • 40%, die primär etwas anderes als Mastodon nutzen und wissen, daß Quote-Posts im Fediverse eben nicht böswillig genutzt werden. Schon gar nicht ausschließlich. Und die auch ganz genau wissen, daß so ein Opt-Out oder Opt-In auf Mastodon sie nicht daran hindern können wird, Mastodon-Tröts zu quote-posten.

So, dann kommst du und teilst einfach mal einen interessanten Post von Mastodon. Was du nicht weißt: Der Nutzer, der das gepostet hat, hat in seinem Mastodon-Konto eingestellt, nicht gequote-postet werden zu dürfen. Kannst du nicht wissen. Kann auch Friendica nicht wissen. Aber trotzdem quote-postest du den.

Da kannst du mir glauben, der wird aber mal so richtig hart austicken. Der wird ja gar nicht wissen, daß du auf Friendica bist. Woher auch? Mastodon zeigt das nicht an. Und auf Mastodon geht auch keine Sau auf die lokalen Profile von Leuten und guckt, wo die sind. Keine Sau.

Zwei Dinge seien noch erwähnt. Zum einen: Wenn Friendica-, Hubzilla-, (streams)- oder Forte-Nutzer Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten, werden die Tröter darüber benachrichtigt. Zum anderen, noch einmal: Auf Mastodon gelten Quote-Posts immer als Akt der Aggression. Immer.

Der wird also glauben, daß du entweder auf einer gehackten Mastodon-Instanz bist oder auf irgendwas anderem, was explizit und mit Vorsatz so ausgelegt wurde, daß es den Mastodon-Quote-Post-Opt-In/Opt-Out umgeht.

Und dann wird das Geschrei losgehen. Bestenfalls wird gefordert, einen der beiden Friendica-Hauptentwickler (also dich) zu fediblocken, also daß du auf allen Fediverse-Instanzen (zumindest denen, die mitmachen), dauerhaft vom Admin gesperrt wird.

Schlimmstenfalls wird das gefordert für den ganzen Friendica-Node, auf dem du drauf bist, also inklusive allen anderen Nutzern. Warum? Weil Pirati.ca böse ist. Weil Pirati.ca Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten kann, auch wenn das gar nicht erlaubt ist.

Unvorstellbar? Unrealistisch?

Dann möchte ich noch einmal daran erinnern, daß @Jakbous Schürz dereinst von einer Mastodon-Nutzerin geblockt wurde, weil die glaubte, daß er ein böser Black-Hat-Hacker ist und Friendica ein böses Black-Hat-Hackertool, mit dem er sich illegalerweise und mit boshafter Intention ins Mastodon-Fediverse reingehackt hat, das von Gargron so entwickelt worden ist, daß nur Mastodon-Server sich miteinander verbinden können.

Frag ihn. Ist in echt so passiert. Also gibt's solche Leute auch in echt.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NichtNurMastodon #Pleroma #Misskey #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@*_jayrope Wenn du ihn naturbeläßt und ihn ganz old-schoolig für das benutzt, wofür wir heute Repeats haben. Also wie in Zeiten, als Hubzilla noch keine Repeats hatte.

Aber den schlechten Ruf hat der Quote-Post eben deshalb, weil auf Twitter auch Kommentare mit eingebaut werden.

#QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Drüko #Drükos #Druko #Drukos #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
Für die, die nicht wissen, worum es hier geht:

Es geht um Quote-Posts. Das, was man von Twitter auf Englisch als "Quote-Tweets" und auf Deutsch als "Drükos" ("Drüber-Kommentare") oder "Drukos" ("Drunter-Kommentare") kennt.

#QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteTröt #QuoteTröts #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #Drüko #Drükos #Druko #Drukos #QuotePostDebatte #QuoteTrötDebatte
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Matthias Die Quote-Posts an sich vielleicht nicht. Möglicherweise übernehmen sie dieselbe Technologie wie Misskey, weil Threads die auch hat.

Aber das Opt-In wird nur innerhalb von Mastodon funktionieren.

#CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
@Lioh Und genau das wurde auf Twitter eingesetzt als Waffe gegen Angehörige von Minderheiten (BIPoC, 2SLGBTQQIA+ etc.). Im Grunde kennt man das als Twitter-User nur dafür.

Noch ein Grund, warum so viele von da nach Mastodon geflohen sind: weil Mastodon keine Quote-Posts/Drükos/Drukos hat.

Was aber kaum jemand auf Mastodon weiß: Das Fediverse hat sehr wohl Quote-Posts. Praktisch alles, was Mikro- oder Makroblogging macht und nicht "Mastodon" heißt, kann quote-posten. Und kann auch Mastodon-Tröts quote-posten.

Aussage, die ich gerade bekommen habe: Hubzilla und (streams) hätten nie die Möglichkeit haben dürfen, Mastodon-Tröts zu quote-posten, weil Mastodon sich gegen Quote-Posts entschieden hat.

Nur: Zum einen war 2016 das Nichtimplementieren von Quote-Posts keine Entscheidung zum Schutz von Twitter-Flüchtlingen, sondern zum Vereinfachen von Mastodon. Zum anderen müßten wahrscheinlich mehr als 60 Fediverse-Serveranwendungen für Mastodon eine Ausnahme einbauen.

Was für Twitter-Flüchtlinge auf Mastodon auch völlig unvorstellbar ist: Quote-Posts sind in fast 15 Jahren Friendica nie mißbräuchlich genutzt worden. Und überall sonst, was Quote-Posts kann, auch nicht.

Übrigens ist auch das wieder so ein Fall, wo Mastodon-Nutzer versuchen, dem gesamten Fediverse die Mastodon-Kultur aufzuzwingen und Features, die Mastodon nicht hat, wegzunehmen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@PaulaToThePeople
Mastodon decided against quote posts so far, so Hubzilla and (streams) should not allow quoting Mastodon posts.

I mean, I could propose to Mike, Mario and Harald to automatically remove the Share button under any and all posts and comments from Mastodon, just to see their reactions.

But as a matter of fact, Pleroma and Akkoma can quote-post Mastodon toots just the same. The same goes for Misskey and its over 50 forks, including but not limited to JavaScript-based Iceshrimp which won't get any new features, Iceshrimp.NET which isn't officially released yet, Sharkey, CherryPick and Catodon. And Friendica can quote-post Mastodon toots, too.

Several dozen Fediverse server projects can quote-post Mastodon toots. They all would have to change. Or they all would have had to change the moment that it was decided that Mastodon lacks quote-posts to protect its users rather than to stay simple.

And where are you reading that Mastodon will reinvent the wheel? To me it reads like they are working on Fediverse-wide interoperability for these features.

That has been Mastodon's track record since its very inception. I won't believe that anything has changed about this until Mastodon actually implements technology introduced by another Fediverse server project.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@PaulaToThePeople It isn't just a matter of consent. Besides, for example, I do have quote-post control here on Hubzilla.

I can give permission to quote-post my posts to
  • everyone in the Fediverse
  • everyone on Hubzilla and (streams)
  • everyone on this hub
  • approved and unapproved connections
  • only approved connections
  • only those of my connections whom I explicitly give permission by contact role
  • nobody but myself

Over on (streams), I can still give that permission to
  • everyone in the Fediverse
  • all my connections
  • only myself + specific connections whom I grant that permission either by permission role or by individual connection settings

It's much more a matter of technology.

Mastodon is about to completely re-invent the wheel with a non-standard, Mastodon-only setting. This setting will only work within Mastodon simply because it probably won't even be documented anywhere, especially not before it's officially rolled out.

There simply is no way that every last instance of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. will have that setting implemented before Mastodon rolls it out so that even the users on mastodon.social are perfectly safe from the first second on.

Besides, @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️, creator of Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte and still the only maintainer of the latter two, will never introduce proprietary Mastodon features to them. He'd rather risk (streams) and Forte becoming incompatible with Mastodon. The same goes for @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen, Hubzilla's main maintainers.

If Mastodon wants to become a perfectly safe haven against unallowed quote-posting, it has only got one choice: It must introduce something like (streams)' and Forte's user agent filter and use it to block just everything that isn't Mastodon. Like, include a hard-coded allowlist that only includes Mastodon plus what little can't quote or quote-post anyway.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #CherryPick #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@PaulaToThePeople @Stefan Bohacek Keep one thing in mind:

Mastodon may not have quote-posts yet. But the Fediverse has quote-posts right now. And it has had them since before Mastodon was made.

Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc., they all have quote-posts. They're all fully capable of quote-posting any Mastodon toot.

None of them has introduced quote-posts to harass Twitter refugees on Mastodon. At least Friendica and Hubzilla have had quote-posts since long before Mastodon was even made.

You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.

At least by Mastodon users.

But since this will be Mastodon re-inventing the wheel with brand-new, proprietary, Mastodon-only technology, everything I've listed above will still be able to quote-post anyone and anything on Mastodon with zero resistance.

To quote-post myself and the guy who invented Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 01:29:11 +0200 I think I've just chased someone out of the Fediverse.

That someone was afraid of Mastodon being "screwed over" by becoming quote-post-able.

I've told him the truth: Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around. Mastodon became quote-post-able the very moment it was launched.

That's because when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with Friendica which is from 2010, which had been around for almost six years at that point, and which has had quote-posts from its own inception AFAIK. Mastodon also immediately federated with Hubzilla which has had quote-posts since its own inception, since it had been forked from Friendica, and that was in 2012.

Mastodon has never been un-quote-post-able.

Right now, there are dozens of Fediverse server apps whose users can quote-post Mastodon toots with no resistance.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:18:39 +0200 The closest you'll ever get to making Mastodon un-quote-postable is to post privately. Not unlisted. Private. Most fediverse software will honour this today; and it doesn't require yet another "pretend permission". Like unlisted.

And Mike should know. He brought things to the Fediverse like actually working permissions. Including permissions on two levels to quote-post any content on a channel. Readily available right now at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Also, this is what people on Friendica and its descendants have been using quote-posts for since 2010.

You will be notified when someone quotes you.

You already are when someone on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts one of your posts.

As for Pleroma, Misskey and their forks, you aren't notified right now, and I've got my doubts that you will be after this change.

Also, "quote" and "quote-post" are two different things. Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can do both. "Quote" is what I'm doing right here. Whether or not you're notified depends on whether or not you're mentioned.

And blocking quotes is even less possible. A quote only consists of a pair of BBcode tags plus the quoted text in-between. And on Friendica and all its descendants, you don't work with a WYSIWYG editor by default, but you have to get your hands dirty on raw markup code.

You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

Again, probably not if someone on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks quote-posts you.

And definitely not if someone on Friendica or one of its descendants quote-posts you.

The difference is that a quote-post on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks is actually a reference to the original. On Friendica and its descendants, a quote-post is an automatically generated dumb copy of the original.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #CherryPick #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
Replied in thread
@toolbear#🪧 From an outside-of-Mastodon point of view (I'm posting this from Hubzilla which is very, very much not like Mastodon), I can see schisms through the Fediverse happen quite easily.

For example:
  • One side: Mastodon fundamentalists who want to enforce the Mastodon culture and the Mastodon "rules" (both as established by the first wave of Twitter refugees in the mid-2010s, based solely on Mastodon 3.x and completely ignoring the rest of the Fediverse) all over the whole Fediverse. And everything that doesn't comply must be defederated.
  • The other side: Places that can do the same as Mastodon, but that aren't Mastodon, and that have their very own culture, not to mention features which are deeply engrained in their culture, but forbidden in Mastodon's culture. Pleroma and its forks. Misskey and its forks, fork-forks, fork-fork-rewrites etc. Friendica and its family tree. And so forth.

Or, although this may become obsolete:
  • One side: Those on Mastodon who don't want to have quote-posts in the Fediverse.
  • The other side: Again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon while capable of doing Mastodon things, because it all does have quote-posts right now.

A variant that's more likely to happen soon:
  • One side: Mastodon, full stop. It has introduced quote-posts. It has also introduced a quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch. This switch, however, is proprietary, non-standard and completely incompatible with the rest of the Fediverse.
    On top of this, as demanded in that one quote-post feature request, there's a new rule for all Mastodon instances: Any and all Fediverse instances which "circumvent" Mastodon's quote-post opt-in or opt-out switch to quote-post Mastodon toots must be regarded "rogue" and Fediblocked.
  • On the other side: Once again, just about everything that isn't Mastodon, but that can do what Mastodon can do. Once again, it can quote-post right now. It can also quote-post Mastodon toots right now. And it won't know that proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-only opt-in or opt-out. So it can quote-post any and all Mastodon toots with zero resistance.

The logical result: All Mastodon instances must immediately block all instances of Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp-JS, Iceshrimp.NET, CherryPick, Sharkey, Catodon, Neko, Meisskey, Tanukey, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc. All instances of all of these have quote-posts. They can all quote-post Mastodon toots. And when Mastodon introduces the opt-in or opt-out switch, they won't know that switch. And what they don't know, they can't heed. So they'll still be able to quote-post any and all Mastodon toots, completely regardless (and oblivious) of opt-in or opt-out status.

This, however, is against the new rule that states that all instances that can quote-post toots that shall not be quote-posted must be blocked. Which applies to all of them. Thus, all of them, every last one of them, must be defederated.

If properly carried out, this would fully separate several dozen entire Fediverse server applications from Mastodon. The only reason why these server applications won't be fully separated is because it's a game of whack-a-mole. Mastodon can't defederate entire server applications by user agent (this is possible and actually implemented on both (streams) and Forte), so server applications have to be defederated instance by instance.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #MastodonCulture #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #FediSchism
joinfediverse.wikiHubzilla - Join the Fediverse
@Lasse Gismo - 🇮🇱🇺🇦🇸🇩 If they notice.

Thing is: If someone on Pleroma, Akkoma, Mitra, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts someone else, that someone else is notified as if they've been mentioned. If they're notified when they're mentioned by a non-contact out of the blue, that is. Mods might not notice.

If someone on Misskey or any of its various still active forks and fork-forks quote-posts someone else, that someone else is not notified, and neither are any mods unless they happen upon the quote-post.

Also, nobody and nothing on Mastodon can prevent anybody outside of Mastodon from quote-posting anyone on Mastodon. And there's a whole lot outside of Mastodon that can and will always be able to quote-post Mastodon toots with zero resistance. See my start post in this thread for 18 server apps that can do that.

However, this much should be said: Friendica has had quote-posts for over 14 years. Hubzilla has had quote-posts for, technically speaking, almost 13 years. And never in all these years have quote-posts been used on either to harass anyone on Friendica, on Hubzilla, on Mastodon or elsewhere.

Sounds hard to believe for people who only know Twitter and Mastodon, I know. But Friendica and Hubzilla aren't almost entirely populated by people who came from Twitter. They aren't Twitter alternatives anyway. Friendica is a Facebook alternative, and Hubzilla is a Facebook alternative on coke and steroids. Both have a totally, completely different culture from Twitter as well as from Mastodon, both early Mastodon and today's Mastodon. There is no influence from Twitter on them whatsoever.

In fact, until Hubzilla 9.0 which came out this year, Hubzilla did not even have repeats (= retweets = boosts). It had always used quote-posts (= shared posts in Hubzilla lingo) for this purpose.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #Hubzilla #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
Climate Justice SocialLasse Gismo - 🇮🇱🇺🇦🇸🇩 (@LasseGismo@climatejustice.social)8.08K Posts, 930 Following, 496 Followers · Independent person with a pronounced tendency to rebelliousness, likes to drink, eat and sing in community, loves wild nature, avoids crowds, regularly goes bark beetle hunting, my longbow is my meditation utensil and my little buddy has long since defeated my pig dog. Ceterum censeo , alternatam pro germaniam esse delendam Fitted, with emotions from the Stone Age and structures from the Middle Ages, we try, with modern technology, to rule the earth.
Replied in thread
@Tejan Ausland Yes, but many on Mastodon don't understand this.

For them, the Mastodon devs are the creators and keepers of the Fediverse itself as well as "the good guys" who have made the single most awesome piece of server software in decades. If the Mastodon devs even only imply that an opt-out or opt-in switch for quote-posts will bring absolute safety from being quote-posted, they take it at face value.

So when they opt out of being quote-posted, and someone from outside of Mastodon quote-posts them anyway, they won't blame it on the Mastodon devs having promised them something impossible. Never would the Mastodon devs do that.

Rather, the devs behind whatever that someone is using are the bad guys. They're rogues, they're evil hackers who have introduced quote-posts just to be able to spite and harass Mastodon users. Why else would something introduce quote-posts after all?

The one thing that'll protect wherever that someone is from their wrath is that most of them won't be able to figure out what that someone is using. Just because Mastodon users can look up a post at its source, doesn't mean they know they can, much less they actually do.

So they may try to get allegedly rogue instances Fediblocked just because these instances are non-Mastodon instances doing what they regularly do. They may succeed because at least some blocklist maintainers don't have a clue about the Fediverse outside Mastodon, its capabilities and its culture either. But it's unlikely that they'll pinpoint this culprit having used Sharkey, have all of Sharkey Fediblocked for being able to "circumvent" Mastodon's quote-post opt-out/opt-in, then pinpoint that the next quote-poster is using Akkoma and have all of Akkoma Fediblocked and so forth.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #Blocklist #Blocklists #BlocklistMeta #FediblockMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Continued thread
By the way, there's exactly one way of being safe from being quote-posted in the Fediverse:

Move to Hubzilla or (streams). Keep all optional communications protocols off, including ActivityPub. Disallow quoting and mirroring of your posts entirely in your channel role (on Hubzilla) or keep your channel type on Limited ((streams)). Make sure that none of your contact roles (Hubzilla) or permission roles ((streams)) allows it. Try to live with only contacts on Hubzilla and (streams); none of them would ever use quote-posts for nefarious reasons, but better safe than sorry. Always post to a restricted audience so that sharing your posts isn't possible anyway. And never comment on public posts so that sharing your comments isn't possible either.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Stefan Bohacek
Also worth mentioning that quote boosts, which have also recently received funding, will include work on privacy and safety features around them, possibly extending to other areas of the online experience.

These "privacy and safety features" are non-sense.

They're proprietary, they're non-standard, they're Mastodon-specific. And they are expected to work only by respecting a proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-specific quote-post permission flag which probably won't even be documented anywhere except Mastodon's server code.

The opt-out feature will only work within a 100% Mastodon bubble and even that only if no non-Mastodon user finds content from within this bubble by searching mastodon.social for hashtags.

Mastodon is selling its whole quote-post feature as a total revolution, as the very introduction of quote-posts to the Fediverse. And it will work. I've once run a poll on whether the Fediverse has quote-posts. 71% of all voters thought the Fediverse does not have quote-posts right now. And that was in my bubble which, in comparison to Mastodon in general, is fairly Fediverse-savvy and full of non-Mastodon users.

But as a matter of fact, the Fediverse does have quote-posts right now! Almost everything that can do microblogging in a way has quote-posts.

Pleroma has quote-posts.

Akkoma has quote-posts.

Misskey has quote-posts.

Firefish has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp.NET has quote-posts.

Sharkey has quote-posts.

Catodon has quote-posts.

Friendica has quote-posts.

Hubzilla has quote-posts.

(streams) has quote-posts.

And so forth.

They haven't introduced quote-posts to spite Mastodon. Some of them have had quote-posts since before Mastodon even existed. Friendica, for example, was created with quote-posts available, and that was five and a half years before Mastodon was created. For as long as Mastodon has existed, Friendica could quote-post Mastodon toots. And so could Hubzilla, created ten months before Mastodon.

In fact, all of the above can quote-post any Mastodon toot right now, with no problems, with zero resistance.

Guess what'll change when Mastodon introduces quote-posts plus the opt-in switch.

Well, Mastodon will be able to quote-post. Mastodon might be able to display quote-posts from outside properly, but probably not because it's ignoring that the rest of the Fediverse can quote-post.

But the rest of the Fediverse will still be able to quote-post just about all Mastodon toots. With no problems. With zero resistance. Even with the opt-in switched to off.

Because that switch is proprietary, non-standard and Mastodon-specific. Because only Mastodon even supports it.

This switch will cause many many more Mastodon users to learn the hard way that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. Namely by encountering a post or comment from something that does not behave like Mastodon. And many many more Mastodon users will shit bricks in sheer terror upon this revelation.

If Mastodon really wanted this switch to be 100% waterproof, it would have to implement the feature request in its entirety. That includes defederation from all Fediverse instances that don't respect the opt-in switch.

Mind you, the defederation clause and the entire feature request came from someone in the firm belief that the Fediverse is Mastodon, only Mastodon and nothing but Mastodon. Just like about every other Mastodon user out there. So it was only targetted at rogue Mastodon instances with hacked source code.

In reality, however, it would require entire non-Mastodon Fediverse projects to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch.

All instances of Pleroma, of Akkoma, of Misskey, of Firefish, of Iceshrimp including Iceshrimp.NET, of Sharkey, of Catodon, of Friendica, of Hubzilla, of (streams) and so forth would have to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch. Every last one of them.

Mastodon's quote-post feature will either cause a rift through the Fediverse if this rule is put into action or even more people to shit bricks in terror and escape to Bluesky if it isn't.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Fedisplaining #CWFedisplaining #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #FediblockMeta
Replied in thread
@utopiArte I wasn't only posting this with raw technology in mind. I was also thinking about cultural differences that arose from the technological differences.

Friendica and Hubzilla are technologically very different from Mastodon. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are rather used to that. They try to cope with it the best they can, although this alone brings its own bunch of issues with itself.

Mastodon users, on the other hand, are not used to it. Many of them have come to Mastodon from Twitter over the last two years, believing that Mastodon is only one Web site. And pretty much all of them, every last one of them, came to Mastodon, believing that the Fediverse that everyone talks about is Mastodon. And nothing else.

Those who have invited them to Mastodon have not told them that Mastodon is connected to things that aren't Mastodon, much less that Mastodon is connected to things that are very much not Mastodon.

Nearly all Twitter refugees on Mastodon have spent their first several months on Mastodon in this belief. They've settled into and gotten used to a Fediverse that's only Mastodon.

Many, not all of them, but many have since found out that there are things in the Fediverse that are very different from Mastodon. For not exactly few, it was a disturbing, if not outright traumatising experience to see that some Fediverse users can post over 500 characters at once. Or that some Fediverse users can easily "quote-toot" Mastodon toots, using something which is used on 𝕏 to harass members of marginalised minorities.

They didn't want that. They still don't want that. They want to make it go away again, so disturbing is it.

By and by, at least some Mastodon users face other differences between Mastodon on the one side and things like Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) on the other side. For example, what the way these three handle conversations means in practice for users of Mastodon which doesn't have a concept of conversations. Or that Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users do not react when someone on Mastodon mentions them out of the blue. Everyone on Mastodon would notice it, so it's beyond a Mastodon user's comprehension that Friendica and Hubzilla users don't notice it by default.

So on the one hand, Mastodon users are increasingly stressed out by Friendica being Friendica and Hubzilla being Hubzilla. They ask themselves: "Why did they make everything so different from Mastodon? Why couldn't they have made it all just like Mastodon in the first place?"

It's incomprehensible to them that Friendica and Hubzilla were both made before Mastodon. For how can something in the Fediverse possible pre-date Eugen Rochko's invention of the Fediverse? It's also incomprehensible to them that something in the Fediverse can be something else than a Twitter clone. Or they simply don't know how Facebook, which Friendica aims to be an alternative to, works differently from Twitter as well.

On the other hand, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are increasingly stressed out by Mastodon users trying to force Mastodon's culture upon them, along with Mastodon's limitations. Not few Mastodon users try to make Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) behave more like Mastodon by putting pressure on their users to a) always do everything the Mastodon way and b) stop making use of features that Mastodon doesn't have.

If you've never come across a Mastodon user complaining about a post or comment of yours being too long because you've exceeded the holy limit of 500 characters, then I'm very certain that you will.

Food for thought: This entire conflict would disappear with a split. Mastodon users would be spared from utterly non-Mastodon things. And non-Mastodon uers would be spared from demands to stop making use of 90% of all features they have at hand just because Mastodon doesn't have them.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Continued thread
I could post the entire context of this for better understanding.

But for one, this would require sharing (= Friendica/Hubzilla/(streams) lingo of quote-posting) a whole number of very long (= way over 500 characters) comments on a not exactly short post. And besides, I guess quote-posting an anti-racist activist falls under harassment and therefore racism itself. Because quote-posts are always harassment.

In fact, I'm now waiting for hub.netzgemeinde.eu to be added to Fediverse blocklists. I can already see Mastodon users try to have the hub.netzgemeinde.eu moderation sanction me, only to fail because
  • Mastodon-style reports to remote instances are probably not implemented on Hubzilla
  • no Mastodon interface tells you who the admin of hub.netzgemeinde.eu is
  • the hub website itself doesn't tell you either
  • even if they figured out who the admin is, he won't notice being mentioned by a non-contact out of the blue because this behaviour is off by default on Hubzilla
So from a Mastodon point of view and by Mastodon standards, hub.netzgemeinde.eu is not sufficiently moderated to silence such an utterly, deeply racist pig as me. And being undermoderated has always been a valid reason for a Fediverse instance to be Fediblocked.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #Racist #Racism #FediblockMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla