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@@reiver ⊼ (Charles) :batman: Mastodon did start out as a full-stack Web application AFAIK. It used the OStatus protocol, the same protocol as what GNU social was based on and what StatusNet was using prior to its merger with its own fork, GNU social.

However, at first, it was not positioned as a fully independent project of its own, much less a federated walled garden that allegedly only connected to itself. It was initially conceived and advertised as an alternative to GNU social proper with a different, "easier-to-use", more Twitter-like GUI being its main selling-point.

I guess it's pretty obvious that what was working underneath was not GNU social proper either. Two examples to prove this:

Neither Identi.ca nor StatusNet nor GNU social had a rigid, hard-coded character limit of 500 characters. Mastodon had it from the get-go.

Also, Identi.ca, StatusNet and GNU social had a summary field. It was part of the OpenMicroBlogging and OStatus protocols. Both Friendica and Hubzilla made use of this summary field as such. Mastodon did not have the summary field implemented because summaries were pointless if all you had was 500 characters.

Fast-forward to 2017. Mastodon had meanwhile repositioned itself on the "market" as a stand-alone microblogging platform, implying to be a "decentralised, federated walled garden" with its own exclusive technology that nothing else used, and that nothing else connected to. Something that just about every last Mastodon newbie takes Mastodon for still today.

At some point in 2017, a Mastodon user from the demo scene with some development experience submitted a pull request to Mastodon's GitHub repository which would repurpose this very same summary field as a content warning field. The pull request was accepted and merged. Ever since shortly afterwards, Mastodon users started believing that Mastodon's content warning field was invented by Eugen Rochko from scratch. And they still do.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Identi.ca #StatusNet #OStatus #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #FediverseHistory
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
@@reiver ⊼ (Charles) :batman: 2008. When @Evan Prodromou launched Identi.ca.

After all, Mastodon started out as an alternative frontend for GNU social. GNU social is a fork of StatusNet. StatusNet, in turn, was the software which Identi.ca used to run on until it was merged into GNU social in 2013. (Evan first launched Identi.ca, and then he open-sourced the technology under the name of Laconi.ca, later StatusNet.)

This also means that the OStatus protocol is part of Mastodon's history as well. OStatus is the protocol that GNU social was based on back in the day and probably still is, that later versions of StatusNet were based on, and that Mastodon was originally based on. It's the successor to OpenMicroBlogging, the protocol that Identi.ca was launched on, and that early StatusNet was based on. But it was gone when Mastodon was launched.

It's also fair to mention Friendica, the Facebook alternative launched by @Mike Macgirvin ?️ in 2010, and Hubzilla, the "federated social content management system" which, in 2015, emerged from something that Mike himself had forked off Friendica in 2012.

Both speak a whole lot of protocols. Hubzilla used to speak OStatus, Friendica still does. And so, when the very first Mastodon test release came out in early 2016, and the very first Mastodon instance was started up, it was immediately able to connect to GNU social, Friendica and Hubzilla.

It's an important part of Mastodon's history that Mastodon has never in its history been an isolated walled garden, that Mastodon has never in its history been connected to only itself.

Speaking of Hubzilla, it should be mentioned once again, namely in 2017.

The very first Fediverse project to implement ActivityPub was Hubzilla in July. Mastodon followed in September. These two were the only Fediverse projects that adopted ActivityPub before it was declared a standard. And so, for quite a while, it was only these two that could use ActivityPub to connect to each other (while still also being able to do so via OStatus, by the way). But since both have vastly different philosophies, actual compatibility was and still is limited.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Identi.ca #StatusNet #OStatus #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #ActivityPub #FediverseHistory
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Tealk Ja, aber das ist nicht mit Mastodon erfunden worden. Und das Fediverse ist auch nicht mit ActivityPub erfunden worden.

Das Fediverse fing eigentlich zweigleisig an.

Einmal war da OStatus, ehemals OpenMicroBlog. Das hatte ab 2008 Identi.ca und das daraus abgeleitete Laconi.ca/StatusNet-Projekt, aus dem ja auch GNU social hervorging. Dann ab 2010 Friendica, dann ab 2012 die Red Matrix (Friendica-Fork), aus der 2015 Hubzilla wurde, dann ab 2016 Pleroma und Mastodon. Auch Mastodon fing auf OStatus an.

Nebenher gab's noch das diaspora*-Protokoll, das nie so wirklich offen war. Das hatte ab 2010 nur diaspora*. Dann hat sich in einer sechsmonatigen Sisyphusarbeit Friendica einseitig mit diaspora* verbunden, das keine Protokolldokumentation hatte, geschweige denn eine API.

Das kann man sich so vorstellen, wie wenn man Hardware an einen Computer anschließen will, es aber keine Schnittstelle dafür gibt und das Ganze dann auch noch geschützt ist. Erst verbringst du mehrere Monate, die Funktionsweise des Computers zu reverse-engineeren. Dann bohrst du mit einem Diamant-Kernlochbohrer ein Loch ins Computergehäuse, das aus Stahlbeton besteht. Und dann nimmst du dein Kabel und lötest 25 einzelne Litzen direkt auf eine oder mehrere Platinen. So in der Art lief die Föderation von Friendica nach diaspora* ab. Aber von da an wußte man wenigstens, wie das geht.

2011 kam also Friendica dazu, 2012 die Red Matrix, die wie gesagt 2015 zu Hubzilla wurde. Später haben sich da noch ein paar andere mit eingeklinkt.

Eigentlich waren das zwei getrennte Netzwerke, weil direkte Konversation zwischen StatusNet und diaspora* nicht möglich war. Und tatsächlich war die diaspora*-Seite nachher sogar größer. Das lag einmal daran, daß diaspora* an sich nicht klein war. Außerdem hat es dem StatusNet/GNU social-Konglomerat geschadet, daß Identi.ca 2013 von OStatus auf pump.io umgestellt wurde und dadurch mit nichts anderem mehr kompatibel war. Und Identi.ca machte mindestens 90% des Gesamtvolumens von StatusNet aus.

ActivityPub kam erst 2017. Wie gesagt, da gab es Mastodon schon, da gab es Pleroma schon, da gab es auch Misskey schon seit 2014, wobei ich nicht weiß, welches Protokoll das ursprünglich verwendete. Friendica und Hubzilla gab es ja auch, aber die hatten ihre eigenen Protokolle (DFRN und Zot), und Hubzilla hat es heute noch.

Im Juli 2017 hat Hubzilla als erste Serversoftware überhaupt ActivityPub implementiert, und Hubzilla spricht ja immer noch fast soviel wie Friendica. Im September 2017 hat Mastodon nachgezogen, das bis 2019 sowohl ActivityPub als auch OStatus sprach.

2018 hat der W3C dann ActivityPub hochoffiziell zum Web-Standard erklärt. Da zogen dann peu à peu andere nach. Bis dahin gab es ActivityPub nur auf Hubzilla und Mastodon, und zwischen den beiden gab's damals schon Meinungsverschiedenheiten.

Also: Ja, ActivityPub ist inzwischen der Standard.

Aaaber: Der Standard ist nicht Mastodons Implementation von ActivityPub. Der Standard ist der Wischiwaschi-"Standard" in der offiziellen W3C-Spezifikation. Und dazu gibt's noch die FEPs.

Mastodon biegt sich den W3C-Standard so hin, wie es ihm paßt, und geht dabei an die Grenzen des noch Erlaubten. Vieles ignoriert Mastodon gleich gänzlich, z. B. wehrt es sich schon immer mit Zähnen und Klauen dagegen, in irgendeiner Form volle HTML-Textformatierung auch nur anzuzeigen. Article-Type Objects (= Blogartikel) haben es im Fediverse sehr schwer, weil Mastodon sich standhaft weigert, die vernünftig darzustellen. Das heißt: Mastodon stellt sie überhaupt nicht dar, sondern verlinkt drauf. Das ist Mastodons Reaktion auf Hubzillas Beschwerde darüber, daß Mastodons HTML-Sanitiser vollformatierte Article-Type-Posts bis zur Unkenntlichkeit verstümmelt hat.

Obendrein baut Mastodon auf einer Asbach-Uralt-Version des W3C-Standard auf. FEPs interessieren Mastodon nicht. Statt dessen baut Mastodon ständig proprietäre Nicht-Standard-Sachen ein (Sensitive-Flag für Bilder, Webfinger, CW-Feld, eigene Server2Client-API, fediverse:creator usw.), und alles, was diese proprietären Nicht-Standard-Sachen von Mastodon nicht auch implementiert, stellt Mastodon dann eben als "kaputt" hin.

Und weil immer noch die überwältigende Mehrzahl der Mastodon-Nutzer glaubt, Mastodon sei der Ursprung des Fediverse und der Goldstandard im Fediverse, werden ganz neue Fediverse-Projekte nur oder hauptsächlich gegen Mastodon gebaut und nicht gegen den W3C-Standard plus FEPs. Die werden also tatsächlich als Extras an Mastodon drangeschraubt. Ältere Projekte machen da aber nicht unbedingt mit.

Nehmen wir mal Mike Macgirvin. Der hat seit 2010 zwei Fediverse-Protokolle (DFRN, Zot/Nomad) und round about elf Fediverse-Serveranwendungen erschaffen, von denen vier heute noch existieren, und er hat 2011 nomadische Identität erfunden. Der wanzt sich nicht mehr an Mastodon an. Der baut ActivityPub-Sachen nur noch strikt nach W3C-Standard und FEPs. Wenn es dann nicht mit Mastodon funktioniert, dann ist Mastodon kaputt, weil es seine (streams) und Forte sind, die sich an Standards und Übereinkünfte halten.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Fediverse #OStatus #diaspora* #ActivityPub #W3C #FEP
Die Heimat für RollenspielerTealk (@Tealk@rollenspiel.social)9,56 Tsd. Beiträge, 43 Folge ich, 635 Follower · Hobbys/Interessen: #pnpde, #Rollenspiel, #Airsoft, #Lesen, #Datenschutz, #linux, #foss Administrator von #RollenspielMonster Schreibe an meinem eigenen #pnpde Regelwerk #ButterflyAspect außerdem Fan von #Aborea #Cyberpunkt #DCC #EIJ #Fate #Konosuba #LosMuertos #Shadowrun #W40k #noDnD
¿Que es el #Fediverso?

Es una pregunta recurrente que me encuentro una y otra vez entre quienes se crean su primera cuenta en alguna de las instancias que la componen y la respuesta corta podria resumirse en:
»Un conjunto de redes sociales abiertas, libres, inclusivas, que estan interconectadas por diversos protocolos«

¿Y cuales son estas redes sociales?

Entre ellas, la mas popular es #Mastodon, seguida probablemente por #Pleroma, #Peertube, #Wordpress, #Friendica, #GNUsocial, #Jabber, etc. Asi, como se puede observar, el ecosistema del Fediverso esta compuesto de mas de 30 Redes Sociales.

¿Entonces que es eso del ActivityPub?

Para que #Lemmy, #Pixelfed, #Hubzilla, #Misskey, #Bookworm, #Drupal, #Plume, #GoToSocial, #Funkwhale y hasta la nueva red social de Zuckershit puedan entenderse deben hablar el mismo idioma... o protocolo. Como mastodon es el mas popular ha conseguido imponer su propio protocolo excluyente, es decir, ActivityPub, pero por suerte existen otros, como #Zot, #Diaspora, #DFRN, #XMPP, #OStatus, etc. los cuales son todavia usados por varias de estas #RRSS.

Aunque no me gusta hacer comparaciones, supongamos que desde mañana los usuarios de Llutube pudieran seguir y ser seguidos por los usuarios de Hinztagram... entonces tendrian que ponerse de acuerdo en algun estandar o protocolo a usar para comunicarse y entenderse...

¿Y que Red Social dentro del Fediverso es la Mejor?

Si nos guiamos por su popularidad, deberiamos inclinarnos por Mastodon o Pleroma.

Pero si quisieramos la mayor interaccion e inclusion, entonces la solucion deberia estar en direccion a Friendica o Hubzilla, ya que ambas redes no solo se pueden comunicar a traves de ActivityPub, sino que integran OStatus, XMPP, Diaspora... y con ayuda de plugins fueron las primeras en abrir puentes con Fasebuch, Xwitter, Tumvlr, VlueSky y Dhreads (de Meta). Y esto es un factor que me parece muy relevante a la hora de querer llegar al maximo de espacios posibles.

In the night I had a dream about a "univeral translator" that spoke all of the protocols for decentralized distributed social networking: #ActivityPub, #Diaspora, #OStatus, pump.io, Secure Scuttlebutt. Everything. And: It could convert from any of them to any other. It could be run on the server side to do the conversion there. Very little to nothing changed on the software used outside of the translator but with cross-protocol federation solved, the #Fediverse felt less fragmented. #Mastodon

Replied in thread
@Jupiter Rowland It's interesting that you claim the Fediverse to be defined by ActivityPub in a reply to @Evan Prodromou. The man who invented the Fediverse in 2008 by launching the Identi.ca site, the Laconi.ca project (later StatusNet, now merged into GNU social) and the OpenMicroBlog protocol (later superseded by his own OStatus).

The term "Fediverse" was first used in 2012, some five years before the first two implementations of ActivityPub and some six years before its spec was established as a standard. Back then, it was StatusNet, Friendica and the fledgling, experimental, in-development Friendica fork Red that were connected through OpenMicroBlog. In addition, Friendica and Red were federated with Diaspora* through its own protocol.

Several other projects joined in before the creation of ActivityPub. Red/the Red Matrix and Hubzilla inherited their OpenMicroBlog connector from Friendica even though it had to be rewritten. And just like Mastodon, Pleroma started as an alternative frontend for StatusNet. The only one in the bunch whose goal it actually was to pull everything together in one big network was Friendica.

Interestingly, it took "if it exists, we federate with it" Friendica until 2019 to adopt ActivityPub. Hubzilla was the first to do so in July, 2017, followed by Mastodon in September, both before official standardisation. So for a while, it was only these two which have never really gotten along with each other too well until today.

I am trying to think of a platform that incorporated ActivityPub from the start.

I think the whole Threadiverse did. Lemmy certainly did. /kbin definitely did because it was still in an early experimental stage when the Redditors came rushing in. And I guess so did Sublinks which is too new to have started out without ActivityPub.

Other stuff like Plume, Funkwhale, Mitra and micro.blog might have been built on top of ActivityPub right away, too.

If you count forks, then this applies to all Forkeys because forking the hell out of Misskey hadn't been a thing before 2018, also all three incarnations of Osada (all now defunct), Mistpark 2020 (now defunct), Redmatrix 2020 (now defunct), Roadhouse (now defunct) and the streams repository.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #OStatus #ActivityPub
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread

@BrikoX

> The ability to opt-out of quote posts is also currently planned, which makes it that Mastodon’s implementation will not be compatible with other fediverse implementations of quote posting.

Not surprising. Even before ActivityPub was announced, when the #fediverse was still powered by #OStatus, Mastodon was already breaking compatibility. There were countless of heated debates about almost every Mastodon-only "feature" they implemented that all other Fediverse devs were _forced_ to implement.

And here we are with yet another.

I wonder what will supporters of opt-out or anti-quotepost camp will do if the other Fediverse devs ignore this Mastodon-only "feature", and just continue with the common implementation of quote posts? Are we going to see a new reason for "fediblock", and finally fragment the Fediverse network?

Replied in thread

@liaizon Personally, and the way the term was used, since it was first coined, was any software with #OStatus support (later #ActivityPub).

When there were discussions of having a new name, I ran suggestion threads and polls about it, and one suggestion/choice was mycelial, mycelium. I like it so I started using it myself.

By definition:
* A mycelium is a single network.
* A mycelial is a collection of various mycelium.

Adopting it to #SocialWeb:
* The "Fediverse" is one mycelium network.o, based on ActivityPub
* "The Federation" / #diaspora* is another mycelium network.
* #Matrix is a mycelium network.
* #ATproto is another mycelium network.
* #XMPP / #Jabber is a mycelium network.

Together, they are called Mycelial Web. A collection of "decentralised, distributed, federated, and open, network". A subset of the Social Web.

A "sister", if you will, of the Mycelial Web is IRC and e-mail, as examples.

So:
I. Web
A. Social Web
1. IRC
2. E-mail
3. Mycelial Web
* Fediverse/ActivityPub
* ATproto
* diaspora
* Matrix
* XMPP

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Replied in thread

@jon @Vivaldi

You're doing great things Jon, and the longer Mozilla takes to embrace the #Fediverse the better it is for #Vivaldi.

But there's some glaring misgivings here that are often raised by people. Half the #Fediverse isn't mastopub - you should really consider replacing that icon in the panel with the Fediverse Logo, or even the ActivityPub Logo instead of the one you've currently got in that sidebar - It's quite misleading, and people who prefer using the more full featured and capable Fediverse platforms such as Friendica, Mitra, Socialhome, GoToSocial, Takahe, The Pleroma and Misskey families of forks, smolweb Fediverse platforms like Bovine, SNAC, Tapir, and many more, ... These stalwart #Fedizens and #Privacy_conscious people shouldn't have to look at some exclusionary elephant logo that completely misrepresents and dismisses the fact that the masses of these people don't even use that platform.

These Fedizens most certainly should not feel forced into being pigeonholed into an association, in front of others, which implies that they use masto.

Here's an example of what our diverse world of #DeSoc's #Fediverse_Logo looks like - that elephant thingy really only offers an homage to one single platform, losing user market share more rapidly each day, in favor of a better and more complete user experience with superior networking facilities.

Wishing you and the team all the very best, and looking forward to seeing the #logo in that sidebar that more accurately represents the community at large, and is also much nicer looking :)

I hope you continue to shepherd the trailblazing innovation that Vivaldi has shared and introduced, and join now with the trending wave of sites replacing that tired old elephant graphic for either of the logos that more closely and accurately represents the unifying inclusivity and diversity indicative of the residents in our Fediverse.

#tallship #FOSS #Privacy #ActivityPub #Diaspora #Nomad #OStatus #ZOT

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